Intimate relationships other than marriage in China

January 22, 2015 at 05:37 AM

It’s with considerable trepidation that I open this can of worms because I’ve seen over the years here that such discussions sooner or later can get rather ugly. But I’m stuck, and am seeking advice from my local Chinese friends and thought I might as well do the same here.

Here’s the story. I’ve been seeing a local woman for 2.5 years here in Kunming. She’s 25 and I am much older. We get along well, enjoy each other’s company, but now I would like to be able to spend more time together. She has a demanding job that requires 12 or 13 hours a day. She likes the work and makes good pay.

I first suggested that she try to cut back her hours so we can do normal boyfriend-girlfriend things more frequently, such as having a nice meal, going to a movie, taking long-weekend trips for which I would of course pick up the tab. I also really enjoy it when she is able to sleep over, and wish that could happen more often.

She says the boss won’t let her do that for a number of reasons. It’s all or nothing there for the staff; a rigid and long-standing policy.

Here’s the tough part. If I were younger, I would propose marriage. But with a large age difference I don’t think it would be fair. I cannot give her children and honestly swear to take care of her forever, including when she is old, gray and feeble. (I will be six feet under the ground by then.)

She wants very badly to buy a house (apartment) in Kunming and move her parents here from their remote impoverished village. She also is putting a younger sister through college. She’s a responsible and hard-working young lady. Doesn’t have much formal education, but is doing the best that she can.

What I have proposed as an alternative to marriage is for her to give me one year of her life. I have offered to pay her living expenses plus the same amount of money per month that she currently earns plus 25% that could go towards buying a house. Her father is not in good health, and she is currently the main wage earner for the whole extended family.

I have added that if during “our year” another guy should come along who she thinks would make a good “real and forever" husband, I would just step aside and give her my blessing even though it might be emotionally difficult. I’m mature enough to be able to keep that promise, though I would prefer that it didn’t happen.

We have settled on a figure that would allow her to resign from her job after Spring Festival and she’s interested in the possibility, though she makes no pretense of being madly in love and doing this with stars in her eyes. I appreciate her honesty.

It would be sort of a business arrangement between two people who like each other a lot. That’s OK with me, since I’m basically a cynical old bachelor, divorced and living alone for the past 10 or 15 years. I have no dependents and a decent amount of savings plus a retirement package that’s adequate for two.

But we reached an impasse yesterday over the method of funding. She wants me to pay her the whole year’s amount up front in one lump sum. She says this will let her make a good down payment on the house she wants to buy, whereas paying her monthly would not.

I can see this as being kind of like a dowry, and realize that is customary in some circles here even today. But I worry about losing the whole bundle if for whatever reason things didn’t work out as hoped. I’ve been around the block more than once and am not naïve about such matters.

Not to belabor this already long story, but I’ve also offered to help her acquire additional practical vocational education that might be of use to her down the road. I would pay for her studies in a field of her choice. Plus I would fund professional English lessons if she were so inclined. (Although that’s not a requirement.)

Secretly I do hope she would find something constructive to take up her time instead of watching daytime soaps and playing majiang.

She has not traveled at all in her young life (no time and no money) and I would like to show her some of the world. Open her eyes to its beauty and wonder. It would give me great joy to assist her in a year of growth and discovery. This isn’t entirely altruistic; it would be fun for me too.

Please don’t accuse me of just being a dirty old man trying to take advantage of a helpless young flower. It truly is more than that, though I have no real way to convince any doubters.

Thanks for listening and I welcome your constructive suggestions and comments.

January 22, 2015 at 05:59 AM

We have settled on a figure that would allow her to resign from her job after Spring Festival and she’s interested in the possibility, though she makes no pretense of being madly in love and doing this with stars in her eyes. I appreciate her honesty.

Hm. Cultural differences don't matter, the age difference doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is that sparkle in her eyes. And she does not have it.

January 22, 2015 at 06:48 AM

Thank you, Angelina. That's very perceptive. I think you have cut right to the heart of the matter.

January 22, 2015 at 06:58 AM

Maybe she has it. I am not saying to give up, my suggestion is to look for that sparkle in her eyes when looking for an answer.

January 22, 2015 at 07:01 AM

I don't think you can read that from your post. I read that as just being she doesn't have any misconceptions about what this year will mean to both of you.

I remember from an earlier post several months back talking about how she was being match-made with another guy, with a stable career and other things, so if she's still with you and seriously considering a year off together, I think it's fair to say there must be some spark there.

January 22, 2015 at 07:10 AM

You are right, Imron. That's the same girl. She rejected that chap even though her parents thought he was completely suitable (house, car, government job.)

Like Angelina suggests, I'll try to get a better read as to where her heart really is at this point in time.

January 22, 2015 at 07:24 AM

Maybe a starting point is to work out how her situation differs from the norm, whatever that is: if you were a married Chinese businessman who wasn't going to divorce, but the two of you liked each other and you were happy to use some of your money to support her, then how would things stand with regards to buying a flat, money-up-front, and so on. Is she benchmarking her situation against any current Chinese norm? Or is it more that you two are both making it up as you go along and she might feel upset by the comparison? As you say, you're asking your Chinese friends, so hopefully they can provide some useful context.

January 22, 2015 at 07:30 AM

Do you work currently? If you're full-time and she's essentially doing nothing for the year, that's bound to cause tension. That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but things are almost certain not to work out if she takes the "daytime soaps and majiang" route.

If you're retired, then that's a bit different, although obviously you'd still want to make sure you both have your own activities to be doing so you'll be able to get some breathing space when needed.

January 22, 2015 at 07:40 AM

I understand your reasoning abcdefg and far be it from me to judge. But when money comes into the equation it tends to distort everything else. As much as you might like it each other you are essentially striking a deal where your part is money and her part is companionship for lack of a better word. That I am sure wasn't your original intention, but once you've put it on the table you can't take money out of the equation anymore. Already the discussions about how to pay it causes some discussions, and it will poison your relationship further in the future. If you pay and she still doesn't have time for you, will you think that you paid for nothing? That she should honour her part of the deal? You see, I just fear that it will all become very transactional (and therefore very Chinese in a way) but I'm not sure I'd want to be in your position.

January 22, 2015 at 08:03 AM

I first suggested that she try to cut back her hours so we can do normal boyfriend-girlfriend things more frequently, such as having a nice meal, going to a movie, taking long-weekend trips for which I would of course pick up the tab. I also really enjoy it when she is able to sleep over, and wish that could happen more often.

What I have proposed as an alternative to marriage is for her to give me one year of her life. I have offered to pay her living expenses plus the same amount of money per month that she currently earns plus 25% that could go towards buying a house.

How did it go from more sleepovers and trips out of town to quitting her job, living expenses, plus a salary? It seems a big change from the original premise.

How come you didn't propose something more modest, like paying her rent while she worked fewer hours?

We have settled on a figure that would allow her to resign from her job after Spring Festival and she’s interested in the possibility, though she makes no pretense of being madly in love and doing this with stars in her eyes. I appreciate her honesty.

But we reached an impasse yesterday over the method of funding. She wants me to pay her the whole year’s amount up front in one lump sum. She says this will let her make a good down payment on the house she wants to buy, whereas paying her monthly would not.

What are your biggest concerns now (as it appears to be more than just an idea now that you two have already discussed it openly)? If it's just the timing of the payment, it seems small quibbles in the scheme of things. Do it in two or four payments if that makes you feel more secure, knowing that doing it in installments would make it feel even more transactional.

January 22, 2015 at 08:33 AM

@adcdef,

look they way I see it is that in 10/20 years you could be 6 feet under, enjoy your life and do whatever makes you happy. It irritates me when people say you should get this job, date this girl, settle down do everything they everyone else thinks is good for you blah blah blah Its your life. I'm glad to see that your certainly not a mug about these things and haven't somehow convinced yourself that the age factor is not a big issue. I agree with Angelina's general sentiment of her post but in my view its not realistic, age does matter, as does culture (to some degree). Of course it does! How many guys would go around with a girl 20 years older than them. If you were piss poor would she be with you?

You need to be realistic and think does she genuinely want to be with you or is it just solely for money. If it is mainly the cash, well maybe you are happy with that. Many men are not bothered by that. I know a guy in UK that is dating a Filipino 35 years younger than him. They are getting a lot of derogatory comments. She is after a secure life and passport, he wants a energetic young Asian girl, but so what! they both get what they want. I am happy for them as long as they both know the score.

You seem smart enough to work it out

Please don’t accuse me of just being a dirty old man trying to take advantage of a helpless young flower. It truly is more than that, though I have no real way to convince any doubters.

Shes not 15, she can make her own mind up, you should have no concerns that way.

January 22, 2015 at 08:43 AM

http://www.boredpanda.com/senior-citizen-ageing-stereotypes-age-of-happiness-vladimir-yakovlev/

#5 is 70

January 22, 2015 at 09:04 AM

If she's been with you for 2,5 years while working 12 hours a day, she's not with you for the money. If she were, she'd asked for some variant of this arrangement much earlier.

One possible issue is that you have been around the block a few times, have had various relationships with various women, and have some good ideas about what kind of things work or don't work for you. She, on the other hand, hasn't. Even if you're not her first boyfriend, chances are she hasn't had an unconventional relationship before, that you have to make up as you go along. So it's probably a lot harder for her to anticipate what this year will bring, and how she will feel about that, than it is for you. In addition, a year is a lot longer at 25 than it is at 40/50.

I'm not sure to what extent you could change the arrangement, but if you could do it all over again, I think it might have been a better idea than instead paying for an entire year of her time, you would have paid for her to quit her job and pursue some further education, of a type that would allow her more spare time than she has now. That would have been win-win, it would make her seem less mercenary and you more like a benefactor than a dirty old man (not saying that you are, you sound like you are aware of what you have and haven't to offer). And it would avoid the daytime soap-majiang scenario.

Another thing is that if one is with a man whose company one enjoys, it can be a lot harder to be open to meeting another man. You two have been together for 2,5 years, so you know what she likes, how to be nice to her when she's in a bad mood, how things affect her, what kind of food to cook for her, stuff like that. Any new man would get things wrong occasionally and thus remind her of how you got things right. A new man would have to have certain advantages over you, but he would almost certainly also have disadvantages (money, for one). Not sure if I'm expressing myself well, but it can be very hard to look for someone for keeps when you already have someone you like.

It's wise of you to think ahead and not expect to marry her, but at the same time, you've been together for 2,5 years, you seem to have no plans to break up and she does't seem to have plans to marry someone else. 2,5 years is a pretty long relationship (especially at 25), and as you mention, were you younger you would propose by now. At some point, you might need to either commit or break up with her if she doesn't. Perhaps you should ask yourself when that point is. Because it sounds like the two of you could easily continue to enjoy each other's company for another year, and another, and another...

All that said, is there a middle way for your current issue? Part of the money in lump sum as soon as she has quit the job, part of it in monthly payments? Make the downpayment yourself and sign over the house at the end of the year?

Good luck to the both of you, I hope you can work it out and enjoy a good year.

January 22, 2015 at 09:45 AM

What I have proposed as an alternative to marriage is for her to give me one year of her life. I have offered to pay her living expenses plus the same amount of money per month that she currently earns plus 25% that could go towards buying a house. Her father is not in good health, and she is currently the main wage earner for the whole extended family.

.

.

.

But we reached an impasse yesterday over the method of funding. She wants me to pay her the whole year’s amount up front in one lump sum. She says this will let her make a good down payment on the house she wants to buy, whereas paying her monthly would not.

I can see this as being kind of like a dowry, and realize that is customary in some circles here even today. But I worry about losing the whole bundle if for whatever reason things didn’t work out as hoped. I’ve been around the block more than once and am not naïve about such matters.

You'll pay her living expenses for a year? After that she'll have to find a job?

Also, if it didn't work out before the year is out, she'd also have to find a job? How difficult would it be for her to get another job as well paying as her last one?

I don't know the job market in China, let alone Kunming.

Kobo.

January 22, 2015 at 11:47 AM

Thank you all for your comments. Lots of excellent points.

I need to confess right off that I’m not at all sure I handled things in the best possible manner. Sometimes I can be pretty stupid when it comes to affairs of the heart.

By way of background, I just returned last week from almost two months in the US. I missed her a lot during that time even though we frequently talked on Skype and exchanged chat messages. I sent her photos of places I went, interesting things I saw, people I met and so on. Brought her a couple nice presents – French perfume and a cashmere sweater.

Once back in Kunming one of the first things on my private agenda was to try and work out how to become closer in some way or other. She told me the thing she wanted most in life right now was to be able to buy a house here in the city, mainly to help her rural parents. She is trying to extricate them from a tough situation, the details of which are complex. She has been working as hard as she can and living frugally, but the house still seemed elusive. It was eating her up with worry.

She asked if I could help. I told her I that of course I would do what I could. The last thing in the world I wanted was for her to quit her job. She likes the work, even if not the hours, and has many friends there. They provide her a dorm and all meals. Departing would be extremely disruptive and leave a very big hole in her life. I fear she would be bored and lost without it. She didn't grow up in Kunming, just moved here about 3 years ago from her village and does not have a wide circle of friends.

I asked if there were a way we could spend more time together because I would really value that. Maybe cut back her hours or take some days off. She said the only way would be to resign, which is when the talk about salary and living expenses began. I wanted to make her whole if she left and not ask her to suffer economically.

One of my Chinese friends said she thought that’s where things went astray. That my approach was too blunt, therefore improper, and that it came across like a proposition to become my 二奶, a kept woman, which she might easily have perceived as somewhat insulting.

Let me stop there and reread the thread. Then I’ll come back and try my best to address specific questions one at a time.

January 22, 2015 at 12:01 PM

Never, ever tell a woman to leave her job for a relationship. If she wants to leave a job for more or better education, then pay for her education. What Lu advised in #13, was excellent.

January 22, 2015 at 12:04 PM

Once back in Kunming one of the first things on my private agenda was to try and work out how to become closer in some way or other. She told me the thing she wanted most in life right now was to be able to buy a house here in Kunming, mainly to help her rural parents. She is trying to extricate them from a tough situation, the details of which are complex. She has been working as hard as she can and living frugally, but the house still seemed elusive. It was eating her up with worry.

She asked if I could help. I told her I that of course I would

I'm playing devils advocate here but these two parts are important to be honest. 'You' haven't be mentioned in this bit . Just worth adding that into the mix so you can see it from all sides

January 22, 2015 at 12:07 PM

That my approach was too blunt, therefore improper, and that it came across like a proposition to become my 二奶, a kept woman, which she might easily have perceived as somewhat insulting.

Isn't that exactly what you are proposing? It sounds like an 二奶 to me. I mean, if that's what you both want...but might as well call a spade a spade.

To answer the question, I don't think asking for one year's payment upfront is unreasonable, even if the negotiating is somewhat distasteful. I understand you being wary of the risk, but the risk isn't just onesided - if you decide to drop her, then she's suddenly got no income, while she still has to feed herself, live somewhere and provide for her family. And at the end of the year, she still has to find a new job, which is also not guaranteed. In fact, if things turn sour, I'd say she's got more to lose than you - yes, you'll lose a few k, but presumably, the money isn't going to have a material impact on your life, even if you take an emotional hit, but for her, it could mean her sister dropping out of school, or her parents not being able to cover their medical expenses, and so on.

Still, though, I think Lu has given the best advice. Personally, I would be more comfortable in funding further education and helping her to further herself (and at the same time, giving her more free time so you can get what you want too), than just paying her to be an 二奶 which is rather demeaning to her.

January 22, 2015 at 12:23 PM

And at the end of the year, she still has to find a new job, which is also not guaranteed

This.

January 22, 2015 at 12:32 PM

This a very difficult situation to comment on because even with your comprehensive posts, we don't know all the in and outs of it.

All the money up front had me worried but then as suggest by others it makes sense for her to protect herself from the possibility things might change. But equally it could be seen from the other side as "she's gonna take the money and run" but it is impossible to say, human nature is unpredictable and this might happen.

What ever way round you look at you are asking her to give up everything she has been used to and come and live with you as a "wife/mistress" doing nothing. Would you expect her to do the housework, laundry, cook and other general housework? Cos in a dorm I don't think there is much of this and this could be a big surprise to her. On the other hand what would she do?

Remember that maybe the relationship works because of the way it is now, seeing each other sporadically may actually be beneficial to your relationship. Being in each others back pockets for a year may drive you both insane.

Your relationship as it is now is like a permanent honeymoon, all the fun and none of the dreary bits of ordinary daily life.

You might find that you can't stand the fact that she "squeezes the toothpaste from the top" as it were.

Why ruin a good thing?

If you really want to help her with a house for her parents offer to make a down payment with NO strings attached.

I really think you will spoil what you have if you try to move this up to a different level. Is there any way she could take some time off, 2 weeks maybe and give it a try. This maybe long enough for you realise that things were better as they were.

Enjoy what you have, recognise the reality of the situation - that it might only be good because of the way it is now.

I say don't change things, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It is only you that wants this, possibly because you feel time is running out and you feel the need to maximize the time you have, but as I say this might ruin everything.

I am glad that you have asked peoples opinions and are trying to do the right thing, but I feel that if you felt that this was 100% the right thing to do in your own heart you wouldn't feel the need to ask. So maybe this is another thing to take into consideration.

I hope you make the right choice for the two of you and things work out well.

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Intimate relationships other than marriage in China

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