Intimate relationships other than marriage in China

[abcdefg]

#7 -- @Realmayo –

“Maybe a starting point is to work out how her situation differs from the norm, whatever that is: if you were a married Chinese businessman who wasn't going to divorce, but the two of you liked each other and you were happy to use some of your money to support her, then how would things stand with regards to buying a flat, money-up-front, and so on. Is she benchmarking her situation against any current Chinese norm?”

 

I think I have probably led her to compare my proposal to that of becoming a Chinese businessman’s mistress or 二奶。Therefore she is now thinking in terms of appropriate compensation.

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#8 -- @Demonic_Duck –

“Do you work currently?”

 

I’m a retired ER physician who moved to China part time at age 65. The hospital lured me back several times for various assignments, but I finally hung it up at age 70 and moved here full time to study and travel.

 

So the age difference is not minor, it’s huge. I am vigorous and in good health, but I know that statistically I’m likely to fall apart sooner instead of later, and I want to make the most of the good days which I have left on this earth.

 

This whole situation could be viewed equally well as “There’s no fool like an old fool” or as “Nothing ventured, nothing gained.” But I do not want to do the young woman harm and hope to provide her some benefits from our liaison, if it actually comes to pass.

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#9 -- @Simon_CH –

“But when money comes into the equation it tends to distort everything else. As much as you might like it each other you are essentially striking a deal where your part is money and her part is companionship for lack of a better word.”

 

I could not agree more, and this is one of my fears. I realize all too well that money in exchange for companionship usually does not work out well for more than a night or a weekend.

 

“You see, I just fear that it will all become very transactional (and therefore very Chinese in a way) but I'm not sure I'd want to be in your position.”

 

Very sensible. Not sure what else to say. Wish I had more options.  

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#10 -- @Gato --

 

“How did it go from more sleepovers and trips out of town to quitting her job, living expenses, plus a salary? It seems a big change from the original premise.”

How come you didn't propose something more modest, like paying her rent while she worked fewer hours?”

 

Yes, you’re right. I would have preferred something more modest. She said that would not be possible.

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#11 -- @Johnny20270 –

“You need to be realistic and think does she genuinely want to be with you or is it just solely for money.”

 

Agreed. This afternoon I asked her that straight out. “Do you really like me or only my money.” Truthful woman that she is, she thought a minute then replied “I like both.”

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Folks, I’m running out of steam and don’t want to get too long winded. Will return later for more. Appreciate all the helpful discussion.

[Shelley]

Truthful woman that she is, she replied “I like both.”

 

Truthful or diplomatic? Just trying to show the other side.

[ChTTay]

For me, the more formal and transactional this gets, the more it will take away from your relationship. This deal will weigh over everything.

 

Putting a financial amount and a time frame on it seems like you are setting yourself up for a fall.

 

Then again, now you're at this point, can you go back? Perhaps not.

 

From the point of view of 'this deal', i'd make her a take it or leave it offer. Set out what you are comfortable doing and leave no room for negotiation. I'd steer away from a lump sum for sure.

 

If she is with you "for you" and the money is just part of it then she should eventually accept the offer once she realizes she can't 'win' OR she may prefer to continue as things are going now. Alternatively, she may tell you she wants to end it. In which case, you know where you stood all along.

 

Equally, if you aren't willing to push like that then you could take Johnny20270's approach and say 'F.U' to any doubts and jump straight in as you only get one life. What's money when you're not around to spend it?

 

I am sorry you're in this situation, it's so tough.

[Angelina]

Enjoy your life and don't worry! Do you trust her 100%? Give her all the money she needs to help her family. Maybe you can help her start her own business. 

 

On the other hand, if you are not sure how much you mean to her, let her go to try to get married (she is already old by Chinese standards ). There is a difference between people having feelings for someone who happens to have money, and being with someone for the money only. I can usually tell when I see a couple by the way they interact. Do you really want to stay with someone you don't trust? 

 

What about you? Do you think you would not want to find a new girl? I am not sure how responsible would it be for you to marry her and have children. Yet, you might find yourself 120 years old one day and sorry you didn't marry her.  

[Lu]

I suppose there is another solution, albeit rather radical: throw out all the talk of arrangements and buy her the house (or make a serious downpayment after which she can pay it off herself), no strings attached, then see how the rest of the relationship develops.

The main disadvantage is that this would cost a rather large amount of money.

Advantages, however, are that you spend your money on someone you like and care about; you give a hard-working, disadvantaged young woman something that would improve not just her life, but also that of her ailing parents, in the long term; you get rid of the 二奶 (一奶 in this case, but still) stuff; she doesn't have to quit her job; if/when your relationship ends, she'll have a better position in the marriage market, owning a house; if she stays with you, you now know it's not just for the money; and she could look around for a job with fewer hours, leaving more time for the two of you.

But it would be a rather large amount of money, which can be complicated in itself (if you have children, for example, they might have an opinion on it).

[Angelina]

If you decide to go all radical, you might as well give her a US passport     

[Johnny20270]

I suppose there is another solution, albeit rather radical: throw out all the talk of arrangements and buy her the house (or make a serious downpayment after which she can pay it off herself), no strings attached, then see how the rest of the relationship develops.

 

 

 

That's the real danger though. you don't want to be very old and pissed away your pension pot.

 

What about if you buy the house and her parents and she just live on it. But you own it. If a house (and you) are important to her as she said, well what difference does it make if she owns the house or you.

[Angelina]

That's the real danger though. you don't want to be very old and pissed away your pension pot.

 

That's why he can choose between:

 

1. propose to her (you might have 10 more years left, you might have 50 more years left. Nobody knows);

2. break up with her (she can be free to meet someone else) 

[studychinese]

OK, listen up.

You can't pay up front of because you will effectively reduce her demand curve to zero. In economics and the study of human action, this is a big no no.

You want things to go well. You don't make things go well by giving incentive to the kind of behaviour that you don't desire.

Also, by giving her the money up front you are doing her no favors by allowing her to buy an apartment in a rapidly sinking Chinese housing market.

You asked the question, and you already had the answer. If you wanted validation, I am giving it to you. Be wise. Pay in installments.

[abcdefg]

#25 -- Angelina and Lu -- You both have had made lots of intelligent and helpful comments and I really thank you for taking the time and trouble. I've re-read #13 and think it contains lots of wisdom.

 

Do you trust her 100%? Give her all the money she needs to help her family. Maybe you can help her start her own business.

 

We both have trust issues, at least i know that I do.

 

I suppose there is another solution, albeit rather radical: throw out all the talk of arrangements and buy her the house (or make a serious downpayment after which she can pay it off herself), no strings attached, then see how the rest of the relationship develops.

 

So far, this is the solution I like best. I'm certainly no knight in shining armor, but I genuinely would like to help this girl. She has befriended me now very sweetly and kindly for a couple of years with absolutely nothing to gain from it except for an occasional bouquet of flowers.

 

I really don't want her to quit her job. I really don't want a full-time mistress.

 

I took her around to an academy 学院 earlier this week where they teach people to prepare and serve tea, to become a 茶艺师。 I am friends with the owners. Thought this might be an appealing line of work, at least as something to fall back on once her youth and beauty fade. Not a whole lot of decent vocations are open to someone with a primary school education. Eventually she could open a tea store. I introduced her to someone I know who just did that.

 

She was polite, but not really interested. No flame was ignited. 

 

Also thought she might like to study English, because she has said so in the past. Might help her in the job market. Took her around to a professional language school where I know one of the teachers. No go. Said she was never good academically and thought she would fail.

 

If she and I lived together we would be at each others throats inside of a month or so. I have lived alone so long that I'm really not very good company for extended spells of time in close quarters. I like to do my own thing most of the time. We would need separate apartments.

 

No way could I marry a woman one third of my age. That would be colossally selfish and almost surely end in disaster. I told her I wished I were younger, because then I would propose marriage and be the father of her children, etc. But i cannot do that.

 

Everyone else, I thank you too. This discussion has helped me examine my motives and see things from additional perspectives. Very useful. You have done a good job!

 

It is late here and I must go to sleep now, so I'm signing off.

[Angelina]

Be careful about giving large sums of money to people you don't fully trust! 

 

She seems like a hardworking person, but she lacks enthusiasm when it comes to learning new skills. 

[Lu]

Be careful about giving large sums of money to people you don't fully trust!

Depends on what you want to achieve by giving them money. I don't even know this woman, but I think if one would give her money to make a downpayment on a house, chances are she would do just that, since it seems that's in line with her own goals.

I agree with Angelina that she doesn't seem enthousiastic about learning new skills, or at least not the skills you introduced to her. What does she do currently, and is there a way up in that profession? Or perhaps leave her be, if she's happy in her current job and makes decent money in it, that seems like a great situation. She can always start looking into other work if/when she gets enough of what she's doing now.

[renzhe]

To be honest, when somebody is working 13 hours per day, I can understand if they are not bursting with energy and trying to learn new skills in their spare time. Typically, exhaustion and stress kick in and people just want to get their mind off of work and anything resembling work.

[Angelina]

What if she started working right after primary school? It's China  No wonder she isn't bursting with energy. 

[abcdefg]

Woke up in the middle of the night with this stuff still very much on my mind. Reread @Shelly's excellent post #20 --

 

What ever way round you look at you are asking her to give up everything she has been used to and come and live with you as a "wife/mistress" doing nothing.

 

And --

 

Remember that maybe the relationship works because of the way it is now, seeing each other sporadically may actually be beneficial to your relationship. Being in each others back pockets for a year may drive you both insane....Enjoy what you have, recognise the reality of the situation - that it might only be good because of the way it is now.

 

I had the same thoughts, but had not been able to express them so well.

 

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@ChTTay in #23 --

 

Putting a financial amount and a time frame on it seems like you are setting yourself up for a fall...Then again, now you're at this point, can you go back? Perhaps not.

 

I agree with that concern. I am trying to backtrack now, though damage has been done through my initial brash foolishness. One thing I seem to never completely learn is to close the barn door (ask for help) before the horse has run out, instead of afterwards.

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Angelina in #26 --

 

If you decide to go all radical, you might as well give her a US passport

 

She doesn't want a passport or green card. Doesn't want to go to America and leave her roots. She is a Hani minority girl from the mountainous rice and tea growing part of southern Yunnan. Making it to Kunming has been progress, and her village views her as a picture of success ("local girl who made good in the city.")

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@StudyChinese in #29 --

 

You want things to go well. You don't make things go well by giving incentive to the kind of behaviour that you don't desire....You asked the question, and you already had the answer. If you wanted validation, I am giving it to you. Be wise. Pay in installments.

 

Point taken. Sound counsel.

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@Lu in #32 --

 

I agree with Angelina that she doesn't seem enthusiastic about learning new skills, or at least not the skills you introduced to her. What does she do currently, and is there a way up in that profession?

 

 

She works as a masseuse in a large high-end (legitimate) sauna. They put on lavish song and dance performances every week or so and she's a star in those. Management pays her extra for that. Has natural talent as an entertainer. It fills her with joy.

 

Is conscientious in her job: never late to work, never calls in sick, and always gives each task 100%. Has not burned out, though that is bound to happen sooner or later.

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@Renzhe in #33 --

 

To be honest, when somebody is working 13 hours per day, I can understand if they are not bursting with energy and trying to learn new skills in their spare time. Typically, exhaustion and stress kick in and people just want to get their mind off of work and anything resembling work.

 

 

The option of learning new new skills was offered only in case she did leave her current employment. As a path to self improvement and a way to constructively use some of her newly-gained free time.

 

As for other uses of new-found spare time, I travel a lot around China and hoped she might sometimes accompany me. She is curious about China's history and culture, though she describes herself as more or less 文盲。

 

I can relate to her exhaustion because I worked brutal 12-hour shifts in the ER for 30 plus years and usually wanted nothing more than to drive home without falling asleep at the wheel, warm something quick in the microwave, and flop into bed. I was completely drained, functioning after hours only in "basic survival" mode.

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Angelina in #23 --

 

What if she started working right after primary school? It's China

 

She did. In the rice paddy plus feeding the chickens and hogs. Her current work is big a step up from that. As she has told me her life story, a little bit at a time, I was glad that she had managed to avoid more lucrative paths, such as prostitution.

 

The family could only educate one daughter (they have no sons,) and her sister had more aptitude for it. My young friend now pays for the sister's university expenses, or at least supplements her scholarship there.

 

In our earlier discussions of living arrangements if she were to resign, I wanted us to keep separate apartments. Am not trying to recruit a cook or a maid or someone to darn my socks.

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And I liked # 18 by @Annonymoose -- Had to laugh at this part, which he later deleted.

 

If it walks like an 二奶 and sounds like an 二奶, then it is an 二奶。

 

Isn't that exactly what you are proposing? It sounds like an 二奶 to me. I mean, if that's what you both want...but might as well call a spade a spade.

 

Yes, that contains more than a grain of truth.

 

I understand you being wary of the risk, but the risk isn't just onesided - if you decide to drop her, then she's suddenly got no income, while she still has to feed herself, live somewhere and provide for her family. And at the end of the year, she still has to find a new job, which is also not guaranteed. In fact, if things turn sour, I'd say she's got more to lose than you...

 

Valid points, and thanks for calling them to my attention.

[jbradfor]

If only I had the problem of living with a pretty 25-year-old Chinese woman!

 

[sorry, too flippant.  I understand dealing with this is not easy and causing you grief.  But you have to admit, from 6000 miles away, it's a pretty good problem to have!]

 

Two thoughts.

 

 

But we reached an impasse yesterday over the method of funding. She wants me to pay her the whole year’s amount up front in one lump sum. She says this will let her make a good down payment on the house she wants to buy, whereas paying her monthly would not.

 

I do not know your financial situation, but IMHO, if you do this you NEED to "pre-pay" her the full year.  She is taking the huge financial risk of quitting her job.  For this to work, you need to pay the money, and then expect NOTHING in return.  You need to go in with the mindset that the money is gone, and anything you get back will 100% bonus.  You cannot expect sex/sleeping N times a month, etc.  You need to accept that it's possible for you to give her the money and then you never see her again -- and be OK with that.

 

To me, it's a bit like lending money to a good friend / relative.  I would only do it if the friendship is more important than the money, and I would be willing to write-off the money to keep the friendship.

 

 

If I were younger, I would propose marriage.

 

Frankly, I say either stop seeing her, or propose marriage.

 

What you are doing is the worst of all worlds.  You are "using up" her life when she is young, when she could date other people and get married to someone her age.  But you are not providing any long-term promise.  I know this is un-American of me, but I believe that one should not date someone if you could never see yourself marrying that person.

 

I realize your hesitation to marry her, given your advanced age.  And very likely you are right.  But I'm sure she's noticed your age by now.  You can tell her that you think your getting married is a bad decision for her.  But if she still wants to, should you really be deciding for her what is in her best interest?  I realize people don't always know what is in their best interest, or make good decisions, but I am very leery of deciding for other adults what is best for them.

[carlo]

I once knew someone who did this. He was about ten years younger than the OP, the lady about 25. He paid for her education overseas. He bought a house in her name in an expensive part of town. She was a caring, smart girl who didn't behave at all like the stereotypical gold-digger, and I have no doubt there was real affection between them. They had been dating for several years. The guy seemed also quite rational-minded and aware that relationships rarely last forever.

 

I'm not the person to go to for relationship advice, and I firmly believe in freedom between consenting adults, but I feel I should mention the ending here. She left him (the rationalisation being that he was looking at other girls the wrong way), and now she's living in another city with another, younger foreign BF who bought her another apartment. The other guy was hurt pretty badly, despite all of his street smarts. So whatever you choose doing, just make sure that you can cope with the worst-case scenario.

[abcdefg]

#36 -- @JBradfor --

 

Frankly, I say either stop seeing her, or propose marriage.

 

What you are doing is the worst of all worlds.  You are "using up" her life when she is young, when she could date other people and get married to someone her age.  But you are not providing any long-term promise.

 

I understand where you're coming from. And I'm clearly and openly not providing any long-term promise at all. I'm specifically only interested in a short amount of her time. The reasons for that are partly selfish, not entirely altruistic. I think the relationship would become very strained over time.

 

We don't have much in the way of common interests. We don't share the usual package of hopes and aspirations on which a stable marriage can be founded. We don't even have mutual friends. So it's really more than just a difference in age. Our connection is sweet but admittedly shallow.

 

And indeed it isn't fair to her in any conventional sense, which is why I have offered compensation in the form of helping her improve her lot educationally, occupationally, and with some real estate. 

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@Carlo -- #37 --

 

I once knew someone who did this.

 

I also know people who have had disastrous outcomes from relationships like this. Your concerns are certainly not at all frivolous. The streets of Shanghai and Bangkok are littered with casualties.

 

I would not want harm to come either to her or to myself and the risk of it all turning to shit is pretty darned high.

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Just re-read post #9 by @Simon_CH because it has gotten a whole lot of green helpfulness votes.

 

As much as you might like it each other you are essentially striking a deal where your part is money and her part is companionship for lack of a better word. That I am sure wasn't your original intention, but once you've put it on the table you can't take money out of the equation anymore. Already the discussions about how to pay it causes some discussions, and it will poison your relationship further in the future. If you pay and she still doesn't have time for you, will you think that you paid for nothing? That she should honour her part of the deal?

 

This strikes a note that I need to ponder more. I'm of more than one mind on the issue. Part of me actually was trying to "strike a deal" in which we traded her pleasant companionship for my non-essential money. And, yes, I would resent it if I paid a large bundle and got nothing back except the warm glow of philanthropy.

 

Life is never simple, never just black and white.

[studychinese]

Just to emphasise my earlier point, if you give her the money up it will be an act of charity. In fact not only will it be an act of a charity it will effectively terminate the relationship that you have right now and stillborn the relationship that you were hoping for.

In my business life I have learned the hard way that if you deliver a product or service without receiving payment, you are unlikely to be paid at all. Why? Because once the product or service has been received the demand curve for that particular product becomes zero, and payment seems onerous.

This is understood in the business world, and is even understood by ghetto drug dealers (“no one wants to pay today for yesterday's drugs“).

I was in a very similar situation to you. Not exactly the same but I had a girlfriend and stuff like her school and work was always interfering. The result was that we didn't have enough quality time together except when I was able to take her on overseas holidays, which over a couple of years we managed a couple of times.

Anyway she gave me an ultimatum. Get married or break up. I gave her a counter offer - I would take care of her financially, and we spend six months together of quality time often traveling around the world. Then I would consider the marriage thing.

For whatever reason she wanted all or nothing, and turned me down. No she is in her own country doing what seems to me to be a dead end job. C'est la vie.

From what I can see your girlfriend is not exactly on a career path. If she turns down your offer it is her loss.

[淨土極樂]

I'm sorry if this is going to sound offensive, but I thought this forum was above well off Westerners giving poor country girls "an offer they can't refuse". No matter how many noble reasons you give yourself, this is still exploitation.

 

Maybe I'm an idealist, but I think a relationship where the woman trades in her body and youth for the man's wealth (and with negotiated monthly payments to boot) is not that far from prostitution. Yes, it's human nature, most people would sell themselves if they're poor enough/given a lot of money as incentive, but it's still immoral.

 

The commercial nature of this relationship just doesn't sit well with me.