Maintaining motivation while studying Chinese

[ablindwatchmaker]

I'm just wondering if there are any other people on here who have studied 4 years or more and feel like they have stopped improving. Perhaps you even feel like your ability is declining.

 

This is the case with me. I'm now in my final year at uni, have studied abroad for two months, and I don't think my understanding of Chinese has improved much at all in the last year or so. It's as if my ability level is identical to where it was at the beginning of my third year. My listening is better, marginally, but that is it. Week after week I read a passage, learn some vocab, write a few sentence structures, and move on to the next and forget everything that came before it. My writing ability hasn't improved at all, my speaking is about the same, though it's a little faster, and I'm getting the sense that the rate of my progress is below that of my peers. In the past I was above average, but now I am below average.

 

Is it possible that my innate capacity for learning this language is tapped out? I hope not, since this is my major, but I'm beginning to think that language learning is much like math ability or music ability, where you just can't operate beyond a certain level without a certain amount of innate ability.

 

I'm just looking for tips on how to approach this and if there are any solutions. I'm feeling very frustrated right now. I'm in my final year and am struggling to maintain motivation to complete my degree. Learning Chinese used to be fun when I could learn new things and express myself, but now I'm unable to use any of what I learn, so it just goes away. I'm not sure what to do, but it is important that I figure something out. I initially wanted to have a career in China, but I'm beginning to think this is a pipe dream for someone at my ability level.

 

Thoughts?

[Bad Cao Cao]

I felt like I plateau-ed at 3 months, then 2 years, then 4 years, then 6 years, then 8 years... 

 

Each time different, each solution different. Every person's different.

 

How immersed are you with the language in your general life? What are you listening to and watching outside of class? What are you reading? How much English exposure do you allow yourself each week? What are your motivations for learning? Do you cultivate your motivations, if so how? Are you having fun, if not why? 

[imron]

Week after week I read a passage, learn some vocab, write a few sentence structures, and move on to the next

How much time are you spending day after day?  Are there days when you don't do much/any Chinese learning at all?

 

Personally, I found targeted drilling to be very effective at improving various areas.

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

How immersed are you with the language in your general life? What are you listening to and watching outside of class? What are you reading? How much English exposure do you allow yourself each week? What are your motivations for learning? Do you cultivate your motivations, if so how? Are you having fun, if not why?

 

Not very immersed at all. I've read plenty of tips about immersion when outside of China, but I've found it to be unrealistic for the most part. I am taking three 4th year classes right now in addition to two others, one is a neuro anatomy class, and I'm just too tired to study Chinese outside of the classroom requirements. I have started watching Chinese movies, but it isn't very helpful, just entertaining. Targeted listening would be too demanding as a supplement at this point. To be honest, when I've been consistent with self-study I've progressed much faster, but my personal life has never allowed me to pursue it for very long. I'm just inundated with assignments that aren't helping my Chinese much at all. No listening component, as usual, no repetition, and no additional contexts for new words. In the past I could progress on my own by using my own study methods, but now I am forced to conform to the classroom requirements and it doesn't work well for me. For instance, we are required to read articles from business journals and then do presentations and write essays based on them. The problem is that we are no where near this level. "Doing well" means brute force memorization without context outside of the article. At this stage in my learning, we are learning a lot of adjectives and verbs that cant be used very liberally, So if I learn a new word, chances are I can't use it.

 

I took an immersion program and I hated it as well. The more serious Chinese has become, the less I have enjoyed it. I don't now if this is a lack of ability or because we no longer focus on communication. After the fourth semester, communicative Chinese pretty much ceased. We can't even understand cartoons and yet we are writing essays about 改革开放 and about quality control at KFC。 Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this seem completely insane?

[li3wei1]

I did second year at Middlebury a long time ago, about 2500 characters thrown at us in 9 weeks, four hours a day of class, the rest of the time chatting away in Chinese with our classmates or participating in 'fun' activities. Total exhaustion all the time (one person was hospitalised for it), some days I didn't have time to make the flashcards, let alone go through them. Every Friday there was a test, every Friday I'd get a C. But the C's at the end were worth a lot more than the C's at the beginning, and I would credit that 9 weeks as one of the most productive parts of my life, Chinese-wise. It sounds like you're doing a lot, and while it feels like you're swimming through treacle, you are swimming, and with every stroke there's more treacle behind you and less in front. The problem with Chinese is just the total amount of treacle . . .

 

I have started watching Chinese movies, but it isn't very helpful, just entertaining.

 

 

If they're entertaining, they're helpful. If they were just confusing, it would be another matter.

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

about 2500 characters thrown at us in 9 weeks, four hours a day of class, the rest of the time chatting away in Chinese with our classmates or participating in 'fun' activities

 

Same thing at CET. The problem was that I discovered 五道口 in my third week and failed to capitalize on the opportunity. No one to blame but myself. That being said, I still felt that the emphasis on formal Chinese was detrimental to our learning. I just don't see the benefit in writing complex essays when I can't say or write a number of incredibly basic things. I never hear Chinese people using these sentence structures in spoken language and I've heard them talk about it after looking at our texts on numerous occasions.

 

As far as movies go, I am no where near able to understand a movie in Chinese. I use English subtitles. I gave up on character subtitles long ago because I couldn't process them quickly enough. I'm light years away from understanding movies, which is one reason I'm so frustrated. I've studied forever and the fruits of Chinese language are still out of reach. I can't understand updates on wechat 95% of the time, though I'll know virtually all of the characters, and I can't appreciate music, movies, or have intelligent conversations. In less than a year I will have a degree in Chinese and will be a complete joke, as will all but a few diehards and heritage students with the same degree. I've gotta say, it's incredibly demoralizing, and it's even worse when you are getting decent grades and getting nowhere. This semester, I feel like the only class that is really useful is classical Chinese, strangely enough.

[imron]

So if I learn a new word, chances are I can't use it.

It should set of little warning bells in your mind when you come across this sort of situation because it indicates you haven't really learnt the word.  You might think you have, but the reality of the situation contradicts you.  It should cause you to reflect on what parts of your learning methods should be adjusted or improved so that when you learn a new word you *are* able to use it.

 

I'm light years away from understanding movies, which is one reason I'm so frustrated.

You're probably not as far away as you think, but like I mentioned earlier the key is regular, targeted practice.

 

I gave up on character subtitles long ago because I couldn't process them quickly enough

Many of us who got to the point where we can understand movies or TV shows got there, by pausing, looking up words, rewinding, listening again, more pausing, more looking up and so on.  It's an arduous process, but if you do it regularly you'll make large improvements.  You need to put in the time and effort to do this though, otherwise you'll continue to stay at the level you are now.  Tysond and OneEye have some good ideas about learning Chinese from movies. 

 

I've studied forever and the fruits of Chinese language are still out of reach

Here is your problem:

 

and I'm just too tired to study Chinese outside of the classroom requirements.

 

To see decent improvements you need to put in regular and consistent practice.  Small amounts of daily practice is more important than large amounts of irregular practice.  E.g. 30mins a day is better than 3 hours Tuesday and 3 hours Saturday even though the latter involves studying for a longer amount of time each week.

[li3wei1]

I use English subtitles.

 

There's your problem. Drop the subtitles, or cover them up. Watching a movie with subtitles will teach you as much Chinese as eating Chinese food. Take the same approach to everything else in your life. If you're not doing it in Chinese, you're not learning Chinese. At the very least, watch once with subtitles, then again and again without until you can understand a decent percentage of what they're saying.

[Mr John]

I guess you're describing some of the drawbacks of going with a formal education in Chinese. If I were you, I'd push through to the end as best you can, then reassess your goals after you graduate. I'm sure you've got a really solid foundation to work with. Sounds like all you need is an opportunity to use the language more to get your mojo back.   

[Guest realmayo]

I'm never quite sure about 'immersion' but certainly what you're lacking seems to be regular and sustained reading/listening at a suitable level. If you haven't got time for that then yep, I agree with Mr John, treat your current tuition as building a formal foundation, and look forward to a time when you'll be able to expose yourself more to the language and let the brain work its language-learning magic then.

[Wurstmann]

I know where you're coming from. I was studying for two years, when it occurred to me that I'm not able to talk Chinese outside the classroom, nor understand movies or forum posts or books.

That's when I finally realized that what you do in class is not enough. Now everyday I'm watching Chinese TV, read the news, read a few pages in a book and look at posts on 天涯 and 微博. I'm finally feeling like I'm making progress.

Also I'm using Anki to learn new words everyday. Part of the problem was, that in university we were using Integrated Chinese and only had to learn the vocabulary the book uses. That's way too few!

 

I think in university you get trained to be good at taking tests, not at speaking or listening.

 

 

P.S. Please excuse my English. ;)

[jobm]

In my first semester of studying Chinese,  I had a motivation but it was for my Korean studies (When I started learning intermediate Korean, Sino-Korean words are just everywhere so I think having a background of Chinese is good). My classmates attended our Chinese class for job opportunities they could get from speaking Chinese, or just for the sake of understanding their favorite Taiwanese dramas. Me? I was studying Chinese mainly because I was interested in its tones, its writing system, etc. and the benefits I could get if I would study other East Asian languages. Nothing very functional and practical, if you would suppose. After 3 more semesters, I continued to attend Chinese classes and in those times, I really struggled in finding my motivation. I looked lame in front of my teacher, not able to do my assignments, and my grades were declining. I might had depression. Fast forward, now I am in China which I never expected in my whole life. I was able to endure this far because: 1. I don't want to waste everything I have invested in my Chinese learning 2. The fulfillment (and the admiration I guess) I get from learning Chinese, you know, speaking Chinese gives you 面子 and be able to understand Chinese really gives me a 成就感 3. My interest in the language grew to other fields. From being curious about how a tonal language works, now, I am very curious on how Chinese society works; from the customs, traditions, and the raise and fall of this country and compare it with my country or to others. So, I watch some tv shows and observe the Chinese, listen to the radio, buy Chinese books (I bought the 西游记 used by Chinese grade school students but it is way too hard for now), etc. I have finally told myself that this is it, I have found where I want to excel more. It is just like finding the one I would marry for the rest of my life. Just always think why in the first place you decided to learn Chinese and explore from that. 

 

But, until now, I do still have that problem to keep myself motivated and improve my Chinese.  It is just frustrating sometimes how hard you exert yourself but it just does not work. I have also experienced being lagging behind with everybody else. You know that feeling of everybody in the class except you understood what the teacher had said, or when it was time for 听写, to transcribe one sentence was very 好不容易. But, I have endured that and I challenged myself to 没完没了努力. My advice is that raise the bar higher for yourself and do not limit yourself in what you know.  Divulge into that sea of Chinese.There are always things that we do not know. My Chinese teacher always tell me to strive for 突破; the encouragement I get from other people and the benefits I could gain from this journey are what make me strive harder. Actually, I also find this very obscure, that I would attend 高级班 semester yet I still do not know basic stuff in Chinese. So now, I have started to review the basics, get some vocabulary lists (like for appliances, kinds of transportation, colors, name of the countries, those kinds of words I neglected before) and review very important grammar points (verb +起来，出来，出去，上去，etc). Just be patient. I often feel my progress at the end of every semester and it is just <3. If 大山，爱华 can do it, everyone could do it to.

[ablindwatchmaker]

I still really want to learn Chinese, make no mistake. I'm willing to put in the time, but I've just become frustrated with the way Chinese is taught in universities. One of my Chinese classes out of the three takes 20 plus hours a week outside of class, and virtually none of it is listening practice. I think the comment about plowing through formal studies and going to China is the best course of action.

 

I have implemented a lot of the advice on here at one point or another, but I've never been able to sustain it because of the homework demands. I only have so many hours in the day and watching Chinese movies for fun is the best I can do as far as supplemental study goes. Once I graduate this year, I will move to China and hire a private tutor 5 hours per week and use some of the strategies I've learned on this forum. The lack of listening practice and COMMUNICATIVE speaking is where I'm running into problems.

 

 

 

I am very curious on how Chinese society works; from the customs, traditions, and the raise and fall of this country and compare it with my country or to others

 

This is actually a major component of my studies, and it's my favorite part.

 

 

Overall, I think I just need to work on motivating myself again and need to start looking forward to study again. I think the speech presentations are really eroding my confidence and motivation and that's why I'm feeling so crappy. I hate public speaking in English and have dropped courses to avoid it, so it is no wonder I'm feeling so terrible about this class. It's the next ten months of marginally beneficial study and then I can take it to the next level in China next year.

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

It should cause you to reflect on what parts of your learning methods should be adjusted or improved so that when you learn a new word you *are* able to use it.

 

I know, the problem is time. We are given articles in which over a hundred unknown words, mixed with unfamiliar grammar points, are given to us on a regular basis, in addition to a ton of other assignments. It's pushing the limit just to understand the words passively, let alone put them into active vocabulary. Nouns are a piece of cake, but verbs in Chinese are not as flexible as English verbs, so learning a Chinese verb in a specific context is rarely helpful, at least at my level.

[Lu]

Sounds like your class doesn't really suit you, which is unfortunate. On the other hand, if you're doing something really difficult but keep at it, you do get better at it. You might not notice it very much because it remains very difficult, but you are almost certainly making progress.

As others already advised, try making a little time every day rather than a lot of time irregularly. It makes learning and retention easier.

You mention that you'll graduate with not very good Chinese. This is pretty normal. Not sure how long your program is, but four years ia not that much time to learn Chinese, especially if you're learning other things at the same time. I read my first novel in my fifth year (which was also my second time studying abroad for a year). Just keep learning after you've graduated. You also mention discovering Wudaokou instead of getting everything out of your time abroad. This, too, is pretty normal.

All in all, I'm pretty sure you did make progress in the past year, you only don't notice it because things remain really difficult. Your circumstances are not ideal for learning a lot right now, which is unfortunate, but it will certainly change (you'll graduate, for one thing, and then you can learn at your own pace and according to your own interests). You haven't hit the end of your innate ability to learn a new language. Perhaps such a thing is possible, but that's not what's happening to you. With different input and more time for studying, you'll feel improvement again. And you can certainly have a career in China: even if you're not the best in your class, your Chinese is still lightyears ahead of most other people's, and once you get to China it will improve further.

Don't lose heart, keep at it!

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

but four years ia not that much time to learn Chinese, especially if you're learning other things at the same time.

 

I'm almost always learning other things at the same time. I've only had more than one Chinese class at a time twice, and the total amount of classroom hours I'll have upon graduation is about 700, which is average for a typical Chinese culture/language major. My study abroad period was only 8 weeks, so I'm at a huge disadvantage with respect to my peers who spent more than a semester in China.

 

 

And you can certainly have a career in China: even if you're not the best in your class

 

I'll just have to catch up to those people in China. My relative ability level was fairly high until I started taking classes with heritage students and those who have a lot of study abroad experience. When I went abroad, it was my first time in a foreign country and the last thing I wanted to do was sit in the dorm all day and study. Some people did, and if they spent time with natives at the dorm, their Chinese improved dramatically. My baby Chinese improved a lot, and I had conversations about politics and foreign policy occasionally, but most of my conversations were with Chinese friends at the clubs--it was hard to turn down VIP seats and free alcohol in China lol.

[LiMo]

It's unfortunate that you are felling demotivated. It does sound like you have a hell of a lot of other work to do and the program is not the best for you. I can really sympathise over the lack of communicative Chinese, I've found it very hard to find people to speak with, serial language partner fails etcetera.

 

It's probably easier for me in a way because I self study so the fun isn't sucked out of it by being forced to do dry homework assignments but I cannot stress how much it helps to watch TV shows without English subs. As Imron says constant drilling is what makes progress, I've never put this fully into practice but I've started "practising" with TV shows more and I feel it working even with my slight levels of dedication. Here's what I recommend. --Don't watch movies watch sitcoms--, any old rubbish will do as long as it can hold your attention, the key difference is that the episodes are often self contained story arcs so you don't have to understand every episode in order to understand the following ones, and the plots are simple. Movies on the other hand are often fast paced and many of the good ones require you to understand pretty much everything to really enjoy plot twists and references that all come together at the end, it's no wonder you use English subs to watch movies (I do too) because it's no fun sitting through 2 and a half hours of footage and being lost for 90% of it, there's a couple of hours you won't get back and you come out feeling even worse about your Chinese. But if you watch a sitcom most of the time you could understand half the plot from visuals alone. The final step is to train yourself to pause and read the Chinese subtitles, my listening skills are nothing special but I've learned to glean the jist of an utterance from just the subtitles, it can help both your listening and reading skills at the same time. As Chinese learners I think we are really privileged because so many shows come with subtitles as standard, unlike English language TV shows where it's often an after thought or completely unavailable. A small aside, they will also help you pick up casual spoken language and slang, I find them incredibly useful. 

 

Sitcoms, try em ;)

[evasiege]

Yeah, studying in a formal classroom setting can often feel frustrating, especially with few opportunities to practice speaking. Depending on your teacher, it might not be that interesting either. As for speaking though, I'd say focus on mastering the basics, before trying to have conversations about politics and economics. You'll feel the want to try to move on to harder stuff because you've studied for a while, but your focus should still be mastering the basics, especially grammar structures. I couldn't effectively use a lot of basic grammar in the flow of conversation - most of which I had learned in the first year of class - until a year or so after living in China. Go to Chinese restaurants and chat it up with the waiters. It's not much, but it will help. Make friends with someone who can speak Chinese where you live. You can't solely rely on what you're doing in class. You can't. 

 

As far as listening and reading goes, you don't have as large an excuse. Watch more TV, videos on youtube, etc. Slowly work on watching without English subs. Pause often and write down words you hear or see. Eventually you'll be able to understand just enough to know what's going on, then go from there. I personally like having Chinese subs on, and most Chinese TV and movies have Chinese subtitles anyway. 

 

The goal is to get to the point where studying doesn't feel like studying, it's just a habit a part of your daily routine. Though I know formal study might always feel like a chore. Have a smart phone? Change the interface to Chinese. My phone has been in Chinese for the past 4 years. Same with my computer UI. Download the Chinese perakun mouse-over translator for Firefox and read other forums in Chinese. Eventually, you'll be learning new things without even realizing it.

 

Realistically, you'll need to spend a bit more time overseas, especially to work on your speaking. Even then, your Chinese will always feel a little worse than what you think it should be, but only because you will always be learning more difficult things. That's just how it works. 

[stapler]

I only have two motivations:

 

1) I have many Chinese friends and always feel left out when they stop speaking English, and I really want to know what they're saying because I'm a sticky-beak.

2) I also seem to bump into many foreigners who can speak really fluent Chinese and that makes me super jealous haha

 

I can't imagine I'd have much motivation if I was just learning Chinese in a classroom. Then it is a chore. So I wonder how often you actually hang out with Chinese people in your daily life?

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

Sitcoms, try em ;)

 

After this semester is over I will have more time to self study and try this out, and I won't have to take very many hard classes. That will give me from June to December to improve my Chinese before I go back there to work.

 

I'm actually going to use a method outlined by Imron in another post which involves listening and reading native material every day until you've learned 10 words and then stopping until the following day. In addition to that I am building an anki deck of several thousand sentences, based on several solid texts, that I'm going to memorize. I probably won't use anki anymore for learning characters out of context. That method just doesn't work as well as using real material. Once I've done that for a while, I may opt to switch it up and watch some TV. For right now, I haven't seen anything better than using that method.

 

As for speaking though, I'd say focus on mastering the basics, before trying to have conversations about politics and economics

 

Those situations just sort of popped up, but I know exactly what you mean. Another poster on here pointed out how much of the basics are forgotten, and this limits speaking quite a bit over the long run. I can certainly attest to that. Knowing how to use qilai, chulai, and tons of other examples abound.