Workers of the world: how much spare-time study?

[Guest realmayo]

For people who are studying Chinese while spending most of the day on a full-time job, how much time do you tend to spend studying Chinese? I've been trying to manage three hours each evening this year and that's about my limit, and even that is almost all 'extensive' e.g. listening to podcasts, watching TV, rather than more intensive and tiring work.

 

Also, do people working full-time manage to sneak in much study at work? I do all my flashcards during quiet periods. I've been trying to read newspaper articles on my PC too, but can't really concentrate enough to make it feel worthwhile.

 

And how many years of operating like this would it take for you to equal one single year of full-time Chinese study?

[Meng Lelan]

I get up at 5am to study Chinese for 45 minutes daily, and that's it. 

[dnevets]

About 20 mins of Anki flashcards, might read a short article on jiandan or read a couple of pages from a novel. That's all, so no more than 30 mins each day. But I'm probably just treading water rather than improving.

[ZhangKaiRong]

Unfortunately, I don't really have any time for studying - consulting companies are notorious for putting a lot of pressure and crazy work hours on their employees. I start at 9.00 am every day, and usually finish around 9.00 pm - rarely before 9, and much frequently after 9. Regular studying is impossible this way - I usually get home after work, but too tired to have any meaningful studying. Weekends also don't work, because I also have to prepare for the professional qualification (ACCA, CFA) exams, which take an awful lot of time. I don't remember when was the last time I could sit down and practice writing Hanzi.

 

What I do, however:

 

- Listening to ChinesePod during my early morning workout or during eating my breakfast at home

- Using Pleco's flashcard add-on when I commute from home to the office (approx. 20 minutes). I made categories, partly according to my HSK6 prep. books word-categories, and partly according to the articles/e-mails I read, which use a lot of business terminology, and slowly adding them up to my SRS schedule

- I have some minor advantage: my girlfriend is from Harbin, and although her English is perfect (and she is able to communicate on my native tongue, at least on a basic level), we use Chinese exclusively, which means at least some WeChat, phone call or meeting time spent using Chinese every day. She also uses this iFeng application on her cell phone, and she bookmarks interesting articles for me to read. I try to read one or two every day during my lunch break.

- On weekend nights, we usually watch some mainland Chinese/Taiwanese TV shows like 康熙来了 or 舌尖上的中国

 

And basically that's all. According to feedbacks and my own assumption, my 口语 has no major problems, my tones are 90% okay, thanks to my girlfriend, who invest a lot of time to make my tones 标准. Her putonghua is crystal clear, and in spite of the fact that she works for one of the big IBs, she has a talent for teaching. That really helps me a lot. However, I keep forgetting and re-learning characters and expressions, which seems to be an endless cycle, I don't really know when I will be fully comfortable with the HSK6 vocab list. I guess I should go back to China and work there - I know it will be different from the time spent there as a language student, but it really helps a lot when Hanzis are all around you.

[victorhart]

I am a total beginner and all I do is watch authentic video (movies and TV shows) in Mandarin for an average of 40 minutes a day. Nothing else.

 

I have no need to learn Chinese and very little available time, since in addition a full-time job and a family, I have a business, a farm to manage, and go to Law school.

 

I believe that what you call "extensive" studying is just as time effective as "intensive," as long as your full attention is on it. Therefore, to answer your question about equivalence to full-time study, just do the math. In my case, 5 years of watching videos equals about 5 months of full-time study. However, I believe that when spreading things out over a long time you lose some efficiency because there is a lot of forgetting/relearning going on. So I could probably get similar results in 3 or 4 months full time as I will in 5 years. 

 

I wrote a little piece about how long it takes to learn Mandarin that you might find relevant.

[Geiko]

I wake up half an hour earlier every morning (5:40 am) to read for 30 mins a novel or short story in Chinese. While at work, I also try to revise as many flashcards as possible. I tried to practice background listening, but the noise in my office made it almost useless, so gave it up. However, I eat breakfast in front of my computer, and use my 30-minute breakfast pause to study a textbook or go on reading the Chinese novel I'm currently at. Back at home, I skritter for 15 minutes to half an hour, read for one more hour and one day out of two practice listening. So all in all, around 3 hours per day. On weekends I wake up at 7 am to keep on reading for three hours until everybody else wakes up and starts making noise and trying to get my attention. 

 

And how many years of operating like this would it take for you to equal one single year of full-time Chinese study?

 

 

I've never been able to study Chinese one whole year full-time, how much can one progress? Maybe from zero to HSK 5? In that case, it took me five years to equal one year full-time. Having a full-time job might be a huge handicap, but I started learning Chinese because I had this job, so I try to make the most out of my limited amount of time.

[stapler]

I find I'm too tired in the evening to do "intense" study too. So I get up an hour earlier in the morning and do it then. In the evening I do "fun" stuff. At the moment this involves just chatting to people in Chinese people online or reading a novel. Most night times I have stuff on though (hanging out with friends, sport, etc) so my morning sessions are my main ones. I'm also lucky(?) that I have a 40 minute bus trip to work so I can do some more then and again on the way back home.

[jbradfor]

I'd say over the last 5 years, average maybe 10-15 minutes a day.

 

However, the average doesn't really tell the story.  When life or work (or both!) gets really hectic, or I lose interest, I can go 6+ months without doing any studying.  When I get inspired, or find a way to slip in some Chinese during other things (e.g. listening while at the gym or while driving), it can average 30-60 minutes a day.

 

 

And how many years of operating like this would it take for you to equal one single year of full-time Chinese study?

 

At this rate I feel I'm forgetting more than I'm learning, so infinite time.

[Yiheyuan2015]

Learning Chinese whilst working in a bank full time plus the communiting? I could only do 1.5 hours on Saturdays with a teacher, privately. The self reviewing including flash cards was only like 30 min a week, far from enough.

I read this book "Fluent Forever - How to learn any language fast and never forget about it" by Gabriel Wyner. The book quotes 4 levels of language difficulty (to native English speakers) using data from students of The Foreign Service Institute (FSI), a US government training center for diplomats, ambassadors etc. It puts Mandarin in the most difficult level together with Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Arabic. The suggestion is that you learn IN COUNTRY on your second year of studying these languages.

So, Beijing, here I come!

[anonymoose]

Almost none, save for the time I spend noting down new vocabulary or phrases in the hope that in the future I'll have some time to review them.

 

But as I am currently in China, I do have exposure to Chinese a lot of the time.

[tysond]

I have experience in learning Chinese while working.  For the last 2 years I've been living and working in Beijing while learning.  

And in the past I've done some learning while in Malaysia.

 

Here's some thoughts:

 

1. One on one lessons are best.  I currently do 2 x 2 hour sessions (one weeknight evening, one weekend daytime).  I focus a lot on pronunciation, new vocab (understanding it well), exercises, reading out loud with feedback, etc.

 

2. Using podcasts to fit in extra listening is very valuable.  Ride to work -> 30 minutes of podcasts.  Go to gym - 45 minutes.  Walk to shops - 10 minutes.  Fall asleep to podcast -> 15 minutes.   My usual routine fits in 1 hour of this per day (riding to work mostly).   I recommend ChinesePod or Popup Chinese podcasts, but sometimes I listen to programs or whatever.

 

3. Anki is great for doing SRS drills.  I got a small mobile decide (an older model ipod touch) installed Anki on it and carry it at all times.  Sure you can use your phone but it will run down the battery, the iPod touch is easy to charge and keeps its charge for a long time.  So when waiting for the elevator - 5 reps.  Waiting for a taxi - 10 reps.  In the taxi - 30 reps.  On the couch watching US TV shows - 30 reps.  Waiting for a friend at a restaurant - 20 reps.   And then sometimes I sit down and do 100 reps in a row and clear the day.  

 

4. Immersion: Well it helps to be in Beijing, but my wife is also in Beijing and she has created an amazing English bubble which means her Chinese is slowly deteriorating from Upper Beginner to Mere Beginner.  So my phone UI is in Chinese, I have a web browser that is set to Chinese on my PC, I get advertisements from Amazon, JD.com, and many other sites in Chinese (daily).  I have WeChat stuff coming in Chinese.  I only have Chinese songs on my playlists.  I have 100 DVDs with movies dubbed in Chinese.  I stream TV from YouKu with Chinese subtitles even if it's in English.  Many times a day I am "forced" to look at and decipher Chinese messages / advertisements / shipping notifications / update requests / social media / etc.

 

5. Use it at work: I made a weekly meeting in Chinese by default.  I also try to at least start every meeting with Chinese people in Chinese although me might drift to English later on for more precision (or we do 50/50).   I read a lot of translated documents - not necessarily the whole thing, but a sentence or two each time (but there are lots of documents).    I do sometimes sneak in some flashcards at work, or read an article online.  Fortunately, quite a few people send bilingual emails so I do get to practice reading them too.

 

6. Reading: I love to read.  It's only recently I can read an article in Chinese and extract enough meaning to make it meaningful.  But I try to read a bit every day - an article on line, or a few paragraphs of a book.  This is deliberate reading, often recording vocabulary I don't know.  It's on top of all the advertisements and phone UI messages I have.  As my reading skill increases my time spent on this activity increases as I can substitute English reading for Chinese.  I would like to get to the point of "Have you read this book?  Yes but in Chinese" sometime soon.

 

On average it's 2-3 hours a day, 1 - 1.5 hours of active study, 1 - 1.5 hours of passive listening or usage in day-to-day.  Maybe 3 hours if I am lucky.

 

I feel the progress is pretty OK, I am between HSK4 - 5 level now, took about 2 years.

[AdamD]

When I'm not studying formally, I do at least an hour a day, usually two. Currently that means reading, actively listening or learning new words.

[simc]

Normally 2 hours or more. My bus trip to work takes one hour each way, so I end up spending one hour before work and one hour after work. I normally review Pleco flashcards while walking to and from the bus. When I am on the bus I normally read or watch video on my tablet. Sometimes I might do a bit more after I get back from work.

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

I've never been able to study Chinese one whole year full-time, how much can one progress? Maybe from zero to HSK 5?

I'd say this is about right, based on what I've seen from absolute beginners starting an intensive language program. One year of intensive study is equivalent to studying at a uni for 4 years and then some.

[Edenborg]

I work 7-16, works well for me to study one hour after about six o clock or so.

But most of my studying i do at weekends.

[renzhe]

Very little at the time, I'm afraid. Whatever studying I do tends to be passive: reading, listening, occasionally speaking. Good for maintaining skills, not that great for improving.

[mouse]

 

I'd say this is about right, based on what I've seen from absolute beginners starting an intensive language program. One year of intensive study is equivalent to studying at a uni for 4 years and then some.

 

Depends on the uni and course imo.

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

Depends on the uni and course imo.

 

I don't know of any people who haven't studied abroad and aren't heritage speakers being able to perform at the level of someone studying intensive in China for a spring, summer, and fall. I went to CET in Beijing for a summer, and we had students from many (not all) different top schools in the US. Only two schools stood out as having above average programs, and those were UNC and Yale. That being said, the Chinese programs all seemed to have many of the same strengths and weaknesses (reading and writing, little speaking and virtually no listening), and based on our levels of proficiency and prior background, there weren't big differences that I could see.

 

I would say a student doing intensive in China for 3 full semesters would handily out perform the vast majority of people getting 4 year Chinese degrees in America. Our teachers in my program here consider 6 weeks in China enough exposure to justify grading you more harshly and not allowing you to take certain courses that are technically open. I was recently kicked out of a class and put in a harder one because of this, even though I didn't have too much credit.

 

Go look at a typical degree plan and calculate the contact hours. I don't think it would be higher at any American university, not to mention the intangibles like being in China and hearing nothing but Chinese all the time.

[laurenth]

A few months ago, out of some sort of absurdly meticulous curiosity, I tried to quantify the time I was spending studying Chinese during a typical day, in between work and family life, using the time barrel approach exclusively. I used a timer and it went like that:

 

1. Morning time slot

 

- Reviewing flashcards (at the toilets... Obviously, there can be more than one such period

- Background listening to the Chinese radio while having a shower.

- Active listening to a podcast while driving to the underground station after dropping the kids at school and kindergarten.

- On those days when I take the bus to the underground station, I usually study some more flashcards while waiting for the bus.

- Reading a book in the metro -in the morning, there's often a seat available.

- Active listening again while walking from the underground station to the office.

 

Timer on that particular day: 58 minutes.

 

2. Lunch time slot

 

- Eating time is for the rest of the daily flashcards, if any.

- Usually, I have 30 minutes left or so for reading an article or to continue reading a novel.

- Alternatively, I sometimes have a 1-hour iTalki session during lunch time.

 

Timer on that particular day: 47 minutes.

 

3. Working hours slot

 

- During working hours, I sometimes have tasks that are not too intensive, so I can tune in to some Chinese radio station for background listening.

- I may also review one flashcard here, two flashcards there, while waiting for a lift for instance, or while the coffee machine is supposed to do its job.

 

It was not the case on that particular day. So timer: 0 minute.

 

4. Evening time slot

 

- Commuting back, I use WorkAudioBook again to practice some more listening to a podcast with a transcript.

- Before going to sleep I read one more page of a novel, story, article, whatever.

 

Timer on that particular day: 48 minutes

 

Grand total: about 2h30. In all honesty, it was a "best case scenario". Sometimes, I'm not *that* busy.

 

Not one minute of this time is taken from family life or work. However, I have to admit that this is a time I could have spent socializing. One could say that learning languages  effectively killed part of my social life, which is kind of paradoxical...

 

Not all of these periods are "quality time". For instance, if I tune in to some Chinese radio station while working, it's mostly background noise, though there certainly are very short periods of time when I do pay attention, when I can understand some bits of whatever it is the radio is talking about.

 

Another interesting point is that almost all of this learning is happening on the go: I almost never use a desk or a computer to study Chinese. Which means that I seldom have the opportunity to do tasks I would like to do more often, such as copying one page of a book, studying some vocab in paper dictionaries, preparing subtitle files from podcasts (to use with WorkAudioBook), writing word lists by hand, using certain useful software programmes, etc.

 

As much of my reading happens in buses or the underground, I have to be able to switch to another task on the spot if there's no sitting room. If there is sitting room and if I'm reading from a dead tree book (as I like to do, to wean me from e-readers and their popup dictionaries), I cannot use a paper dictionary at the same time.

 

Of course owning a smart phone has solved most of these problems, as I can use it to read books, articles or comics, to lookup words, to create word lists, to study word lists, to listen to podcasts or music, to chat (in fact I don't, but I could), to download podcasts and transcripts, etc.

 

Paradoxically, I actually have much *less* time to study during weekends or holidays, as I'm not commuting and not having lunch at the office cafeteria.

 

 

how many years of operating like this would it take for you to equal one single year of full-time Chinese study?

 

If the 10,000 hour "rule" has any value (which is debatable), and if I wanted to become truly fluent in Chinese (which I don't) , and if my math is correct (which would come as a surprise), it would take me, well, somewhere between 16 and 17 years  (which seems perfectly reasonable to me) of such a diet.

[Guangxi Shane]

Recently, it took me about 5 weeks to complete Pimsleur's Basic Mandarin Chinese I course. I did all the listening, about 6 hours a week, while I was at work, driving very slowly in a 4WD SUV on steep, unpaved mountain roads. Probably some people who saw me thought I was crazy because it looked like I was talking to myself.

 

It took me about 30 hours to complete Pimsleur's first level course, which is only ~5 hours of recordings, but I probably listened to each one at least 6 times before I could reliably reproduce the sounds and respond in a reasonable period of time. I finished the Pimsleur Mandarin I course about a month ago, and I'm about ready to order level II from the local library and start that course. Aside from the Pimsleur course, I probably listen to podcasts on YoYo Chinese and Chinese Pod about 2 hours/week max.

 

Recently, in another post, Roddy asked what resources I was using to study Chinese. He seemed surprised I didn't know more about basic Chinese grammar and tone sandhi. So far, I've been learning Chinese in kind of a lazy haphazard way, which I admit is not the most efficient way. I enjoy talking with people, and in the past I've been pretty successful at learning languages by studying a little bit but mostly just listening to native speakers and copying what they say. I'm pretty good at mimicking sounds. Hopefully, that'll help me with learning Chinese as well. Pretty much every chance I get, which is usually multiple times every day while I'm at work and once in awhile when I'm off, I walk up to Chinese tourists and say, 你好。欢迎来到夏威夷. Usually the Chinese visitors are really happy to have someone try to talk with them in Chinese, and some visitors I've met have ended up spending a lot of time talking with me, mostly in English, but also teaching me Chinese, correcting my pronunciation, etc, which is fun for me and I think for the visitors as well. 

 

My long term plan is to actually learn to read and write Chinese in addition to learning to speak, so eventually I'm going to have to buckle down and do a lot of book work. I feel like, with Chinese, just speaking won't be enough. If I really want learn to communicate well, I'm going to need to learn reading and writing too. I just ordered Heisig's Remembering the Simplified Hanzi I from Amazon. Hopefully that'll help me get more involved with learning reading and writing.

 

It's amazing how many Chinese people are travelling to Hawaii now. Twenty years ago when my wife and I arrived here, there were, literally, no mainland Chinese tourists here. Last night we went out for dinner at a nice restaurant in Hilo and it was amazing, there were Chinese people everywhere! The night before last we ate out at a local style Vietnamese restaurant, and about half of the other people eating in the restaurant were Chinese nationals!

 

Last week, while I was at work, I met a Chinese family whose 6 year old son is the same age as my daughter. They gave me their cell phone number, and I texted them a couple days later while I was having dinner with my wife and daughter in town, and we ended up meeting up with them after dinner. My daughter was really shy at first, but after walking along the waterfront together for awhile, she and the little Chinese boy ended up running around, playing, chasing ducks, and talking to eachother in English and Chinese. The Chinese boy gave my daughter a little plastic ring as a present, and we promised we'd look them up when we eventually make it to 北京. I also signed up for a WeChat account so we can keep in touch with the family we met and hopefully add other Chinese people we meet along our journey learning Chinese.

 

I'm pretty envious of some of the members of this board who seem incredibly disciplined in their study habits. Hopefully, reading their posts will motivate me to become more disciplined and do more book learning along with just enjoying having fun conversations with Chinese people I meet. Thanks again to all of you who take the time to post on Chinese-Forums. These forums are really helpful and motivating for me! Hopefully, some day, I'll know enough Chinese that I'll be able to begin answering questions and helping other people out, instead of always being the one who's asking questions and receiving help.