savah Posted February 12, 2015 at 09:28 AM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 09:28 AM Hello, How should I pronounce '中' as indicated as 'zhong' of Hanyu pinyin or as indicated as 'jung' of Yale? It seems I hear the final part of the syllable sound as 'u' not as 'o'. It seems people pronounce 'jung' for the syllable, not 'jong'. Should I pronounce 'jong1guo2' for ’中国’？
Popular Post stapler Posted February 12, 2015 at 09:52 AM Popular Post Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 09:52 AM You should pronounce it as "zhong", which has no equivalent in English. Both pinyin "zhong" and yale "jung" are the same sound in Chinese. Don't try and read romanised Chinese with English phonetics. Think of it as a guide, not an representation of the sound using English phonetics. 5
Demonic_Duck Posted February 12, 2015 at 10:43 AM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 10:43 AM Agree with @stapler. Relying on your own reading of whatever romanisation system you're using will be disastrous for your pronunciation (the same as an English speaker trying to read French with no knowledge of French phonology - they'd probably try to pronounce “qu'est-ce que c'est” as /kwest kə kwe kest/ instead of /kɛs kə sɛ/). Listen to sound recordings and try to get as close to them as you can, ignoring how the word is written (pinyin, Yale, Wade-Giles, Hanzi, zhuyin, cyrillised Chinese...) If you're having trouble actually producing a sound satisfactorally, try to find a description of how to pronounce it (tongue placement etc), or a diagram of how it's produced in the mouth. Better still, find a good tutor or language exchange partner to help you. In the case of “中”, the initial sounds very similar to English “j” (as in “jug”), but not exactly the same - the tip of your tongue should be a little way behind your top row of teeth, rather than near your bottom teeth. The final is a little bit like English “-ong” (as in “long”), but not quite - your lips should be a bit more rounded. Regarding which romanisation system to use, I'd highly recommend pinyin, as it's both simple and beautiful once you've learnt how to use it properly, and all others are essentially obsolete (it's true zhuyin is still widely used in Taiwan, but that's not a romanisation system per se). Just make sure you don't “望文生音” (i.e. try to deduce the sound purely from how it's written). 1
renzhe Posted February 12, 2015 at 10:52 AM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 10:52 AM It's neither "o" nor "u". Mandarin is rich in vowels and they don't always map neatly to what you're used to from other languages. The medial in -ong sounds both like "u" and "o". You really need to learn pinyin just like you would learn any other writing system. For example, "l'eau" in French does not contain "e", "a" or "u". You simply have to learn what the vowel "eau" sounds like. Pinyin is easy to learn, but it has to be learnt. Just knowing the Roman alphabet is not enough. 1
savah Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:11 PM Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:11 PM I can't understand your saying,'The medial in -ong sounds both 'u' and 'o'. The medial 'o' represents disttinctly and unequivocally 'o', and the 'o' is distinctly different from the 'u'. If the medial represents both 'o' and 'u', what is the use of the differentiation in the representation of the two sounds of 'u' and 'o' in the first place? I don't believe you will hear people say possibly 'jongguo' instead of 'jungguo' for China in Chinese.
Satirical Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:22 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:22 PM @Savah The reason it sounds weird is because of the tone of it. You produce a sound that 's different from the way we say 'o' or 'u' in English, but in Chinese it's somewhere between the two sounds. In Pinyin, the O and the U have different sounds, and like in English, it's not just one sound for each letter. but a pinyin 'o' is not the English 'o' and you should beware of that mistake. 1
Angelina Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:27 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:27 PM @Satirical Exactly. How should I pronounce '中' as indicated as 'zhong' of Hanyu pinyin zhōng I can't understand your saying,'The medial in -ong sounds both 'u' and 'o'. You know what medials are, I assume you have heard about the IPA too. 1
savah Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:39 PM Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:39 PM http://tinyurl.com/lgjc288 How do you hear the speaker say 'mddle' in Chinese? It seems the speaker say 'jung'.
Angelina Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:57 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 02:57 PM How do you hear the speaker say 'middle' in Chinese? It seems the speaker say 'jung'. To me it sounds more like а 'џонг'. Do you see my point? Forget about English spelling. English and pīnyīn are two separate systems, they might use symbols that look similar, but the systems are not exactly the same. In other words, the symbols are not the same despite having a similar form. 2
Yorin Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:06 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:06 PM It seems the speaker say 'jung'. What "jung" are you talking about? "jung" as an American would say it? "jung" as a German would say it? You have to realize there is not the "jung". A word in the latin alphabet does not equal a certain sound, until you define what transcription system you're talking about. The "zhong" of Pinyin has nothing to do with the way you'd pronounce these letters in English. If you want to learn how to correctly pronounce a word written in Pinyin, you have to relearn what "zh" and what "ong" sounds like in that transcription system, as opposed to your own language. You need to understand that Pinyin does not exist to accomodate the needs of people of any particular nationality, other than Chinese. 2
Demonic_Duck Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:12 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:12 PM http://tinyurl.com/lgjc288 How do you hear the speaker say 'mddle' in Chinese? It seems the speaker say 'jung'. In the case of “中”, the initial sounds very similar to English “j” (as in “jug”), but not exactly the same - the tip of your tongue should be a little way behind your top row of teeth, rather than near your bottom teeth. The final is a little bit like English “-ong” (as in “long”), but not quite - your lips should be a bit more rounded. ^ I hear the speaker say it like that. 1
xiaokaka Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:25 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:25 PM The IPA for zhong is [ʈʂʷuŋ], as given by San Duanmu (2007), ‘The Phonology of Standard Chinese’. Other transcriptions include [dʒʊŋ], [dʒuŋ] and [ʐuŋ] all given in Shibles, ‘IPA TRANSLITERATION OF CHINESE ROMANIZATION SYSTEMS’. [dʒ] is the same as /j/ in jug [dʒʌg] and jump [dʒʌmp], but as seen it is not the same /u/ sound. 1
renzhe Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:58 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 03:58 PM I can't understand your saying,'The medial in -ong sounds both 'u' and 'o'. I'm saying that it is pronounced /ʊ/. And that -ong is pronounced /ʊŋ/. Pinying "zhong" and Yale "jung" are just different ways of writing /dʒʊŋ/, though as xiaokaka points out, there is considerable variation among native speakers, as with any language. 1
savah Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:15 PM Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:15 PM @xiakaka I don't insist on for 'u' agree with IPA 'u' but only an indication of approximation. How come the Yale Mandarin Romanization system has come up with their 'jung' version for the 'middle' in Chinese, unless the authors were all dumb? You must give credit to their honest effort, not brushing off thier legitimate scholarship as 'useless', don't you? You are only one member of this place who cited 'tswung' for an approximation of the phonetic representation of the 'middle' in Chinese. Someone said, 免责声明：我不是个中国人，也不是个中国通，只是某个有电脑的家伙。Anyone there bilingually competent both in English and Chinese, preferably native speaker of Chinese? 1
Angelina Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:37 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:37 PM Someone gave you a thumbs down, I am giving you a thumbs up to make it neutral. (Speaking of Yale, there is this nice paper on the final -e in Chaucer written by a Yale professor. You might be interested. http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/47713-length-based-cantonese-romanisation/?p=362401) The efforts of Yale scholars served their purpose. We all know the story of pīnyīn. Now can you please not hate it? Because of me at least. 1
renzhe Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:40 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 04:40 PM Anyone there bilingually competent both in English and Chinese, preferably native speaker of Chinese?How about San Duanmu? You can read his opinion in "The Phonology of Standard Chinese" (2007). 1
Demonic_Duck Posted February 12, 2015 at 05:55 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 05:55 PM @xiakaka I don't insist on for 'u' agree with IPA 'u' but only an indication of approximation. How come the Yale Mandarin Romanization system has come up with their 'jung' version for the 'middle' in Chinese, unless the authors were all dumb? No-one claimed Yale was "useless". I did say it was "obsolete", which means that it is no longer used, not that it's useless. If everyone was still using Yale, that'd be the system I'd recommend you learn. However, very few people still do use it, so you'd probably be wasting your time, unless you wanted to learn it for academic purposes. As I said earlier, I'd recommend learning and using pinyin, though learning Yale isn't wrong in any sense, just not the most obvious choice. Pronouncing Chinese with reference to your preexisting ideas about how letters of the Latin alphabet should be pronounced, however, is wrong, no matter which romanisation system you're basing it on. You are only one member of this place who cited 'tswung' for an approximation of the phonetic representation of the 'middle' in Chinese. Someone said, 免责声明：我不是个中国人，也不是个中国通，只是某个有电脑的家伙。Anyone there bilingually competent both in English and Chinese, preferably native speaker of Chinese? I put that disclaimer in my signature because I don't want people taking what I say as gospel, especially on more complex aspects of grammar, subtle nuances of word choice etc. However, how to pronounce “中” is pretty basic stuff. I've been learning for over three years, most of that within China, and pronunciation is one of my strongest points. I also have a keen interest in linguistics. You're welcome to not take my advice, but please don't assume the fact I'm not a native speaker means I don't know what I'm talking about. 2
edelweis Posted February 12, 2015 at 06:05 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 06:05 PM @angelina: I hope you'll forgive me if I undo your neutralization. I found that post #14 quite ungrateful and willfully disregarding all the great explanations given in this thread. 2
Hofmann Posted February 12, 2015 at 07:15 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 07:15 PM Speech sounds can be represented in writing in many different ways. The vowel in 中 has been represented using ʊ (in IPA), u (in Wade-Giles), o (in Hanyu Pinyin), and perhaps otherwise in other systems. How sounds are represented in writing is up to whoever developed the system. Therefore, regarding what you should pronounce, you should pronounce what you hear, and learn the written representation of it in the system(s) you want to use. 2
889 Posted February 12, 2015 at 08:25 PM Report Posted February 12, 2015 at 08:25 PM I think the OP expects the o in 中 to rhyme with either the o in Joe or the u in flung. The answer, of course, is that it's not quite either.
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