Flickserve Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:00 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:00 AM http://www.archchinese.com/chinese_english_dictionary.html?find=中 Please tell us what you heard. Roughly, 'Choong' or 'Chong'? I don't hear either of those!My english is from London, UK.
Angelina Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:05 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:05 AM Can you please give it up? Pinyin is pinyin, English is English, they can coexist peacefully.
Flickserve Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:10 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:10 AM Technically, if you're saying it correctly, it matches up perfectly to the romanisation. Pinyin: zhōng Zhuyin: ㄓㄨㄥ Wade-Giles: chung1 Gwoyeu Romatzyh: jong IPA: /ʈ͡ʂʊŋ⁵⁵/* Yale: jūng The Mandarin pronunciation of “中” (when it means “middle”) matches up exactly with all of these, just as this colour matches exactly with the representations “red”, “#FF0000” or “(255, 0, 0)”. If you saw pinyin “zhōng” and pronounced it as pinyin [chōng], [zhóng], [zhēng], [jiǒng] etc., only then could you properly say that your utterance and its textual representation didn't match up. *Taken from Wiktionary. my apologies, the sentence is incomplete and should say romanisation with a typical english pronunciation.
savah Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:40 AM Author Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:40 AM Is there any Mandarin Romanization system so haphazardly created that the elements of the system have nothing to do with its significance of matching as much as possible the signs with the sounds they try to represent? What is the use of the system if it desn't serve the purpose of, for one, matching 'ong' with 'ong', albeit roughly? Is it there as a mere pretender?
imron Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:48 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:48 AM Merged with existing topic. 1
li3wei1 Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:57 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:57 AM matching as much as possible the signs with the sounds they try to represent? Savah, the lines, curves and dots of 'jung', 'choong', 'zhong', or however else you want to spell it do not 'match' the sounds any more than the symbol 中 does. The letters of the Roman alphabet were devised a long time ago for, I think, the Phoenician language or some such, and have evolved since then, as have the languages. We use them for various sound in English, other people use them for different sounds in French, German, Italian, etc. It's worth noting that Shakespeare didn't use them in exactly the same way as we do now, and that Americans, Australians, Irish and Scots don't use them all exactly the same either. They are arbitrary symbols, and we learn to match them with sounds through repeated use, just as the Chinese learn how to pronounce their characters. Pinyin wasn't designed for speakers of English, and it wasn't designed as a teaching tool for people learning Chinese as a second language. I agree that it's not the best for these purposes, but it's pretty much what we have if we want to use the vast quantity of learning materials produced on the mainland, and all the electronic devices that use it as an input method, and all mainlanders learn it as well, so if you want to discuss the language with them it's useful to know it. Arguing that it should be different from what it is is like telling a Frenchman that he should spell 'parler' p-a-r-l-e-y because that's how it sounds. Give up. 2
Angelina Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:57 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:57 AM matching as much as possible the signs with the sounds they try to represent? What is the use of the system Sounds can never be translated into visual signs. It's impossible. However, we can try to use some visual signs to help us communicate. Pinyin can be used by people in order to communicate with each other. Is it perfect? No. Is the IPA perfect? No. Can any writing system be a perfect representation of spoken language? No. Why did people choose pinyin (zhōng) over those romanisation systems that are using choong or chong? Because it is easier and can help us communicate better than using other systems.
savah Posted February 14, 2015 at 09:21 AM Author Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 09:21 AM Don't you think 'zhong' is a dubious representation of whatever sound it is purported to signify? On one hand it represents 'chong' and on the other 'choong', even in dictionaries for that matter. For only that point, how can it be said that pinyin is a reliable and dependable system? Neverthless, it struts valiantly in the avenues in broad daylight. I almost forgot to say. I don't confuse Romanization with Anglicization.
imron Posted February 14, 2015 at 09:24 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 09:24 AM Don't you think 'zhong' is a dubious representation of whatever sound it is purported to signify? On one hand it represents 'chong' and on the other 'choong', No it doesn't. It represents zhong. how can it be said that pinyin is a reliable and dependable system? Because it is, and millions use it reliably and dependably. 2
Flickserve Posted February 14, 2015 at 10:15 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 10:15 AM Don't you think 'zhong' is a dubious representation of whatever sound it is purported to signify? On one hand it represents 'chong' and on the other 'choong', even in dictionaries for that matter. For only that point, how can it be said that pinyin is a reliable and dependable system? Neverthless, it struts valiantly in the avenues in broad daylight. I almost forgot to say. I don't confuse Romanization with Anglicization.it seems alright to me. But in any case, you don't have to use it at all. Just remember the sound for 中. I think there are other alternative systems - you don't need romanisation.
Hofmann Posted February 14, 2015 at 10:42 AM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 10:42 AM The others are too polite to say so, but you are either a troll or an idiot. I'm done with you for my sake. 1
renzhe Posted February 14, 2015 at 12:17 PM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 12:17 PM Don't you think 'zhong' is a dubious representation of whatever sound it is purported to signify? No, I think it's perfect. It signifies a combination of the initial "zh" /ʈ͡ʂ/ and the final "-ong" /ʊŋ/, and that is exactly how it is pronounced. On one hand it represents 'chong' and on the other 'choong'It doesn't. It always signifies /ʊŋ/. Always. Your problem is not with pinyin, but with the sound of Chinese in general. It's not English, it has its own set of sounds. Once you accept that "-ong" is pronounced /ʊŋ/, it all makes perfect sense. Then you just have to work on pronouncing /ʊŋ/ and hearing it clearly. What might be confusing you is that the rounding of the lips from the initial "zh" sometimes makes the vowel /ʊ/ sound more rounded than usual with some speakers, but it's still the same final as in "long", "dong", "tong", "nong", "rong" and others. 1
Angelina Posted February 14, 2015 at 12:21 PM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 12:21 PM OP is definitely not an idiot. She or he knows stuff about language. However, OP seems to have this irrational hatred of pinyin. Why the hatred savah?
renzhe Posted February 14, 2015 at 12:34 PM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 12:34 PM I am constantly fascinated by the romanisation discussions. There are at least 157 threads on here * where somebody is making up their own romanisation or arguing why transcription method X is worse than transcription method Y. Why don't French forums get any of this? Why aren't there threads from the guy who thinks that "l'eau" should be written "l'oh" and "suis" should be written "swee"? Why aren't German forums full of people insisting that "Stadt" should be written "Shtutt"? Why is it only the Chinese people who have to change the way they write because some guy on the internet thinks it would be better? * This is not the correct number. I started counting, but gave up after 132. 3
roddy Posted February 14, 2015 at 03:02 PM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 03:02 PM Lucky guess there, Renzhe, there are actually 157 of them currently! For everyone's info, savah is not - as is usually the case when people yell 'troll' - actually a troll. He's just that much more common thing, wrong, and also that even more common thing, struggling a little in a foreign language. 2
geraldc Posted February 14, 2015 at 03:30 PM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 03:30 PM I remember my first few lessons in pinyin. A lot of being told to purse your lips like you're going to kiss someone, a lot of stuff about whether or not your teeth should be together, and finally stuff about the position of your tongue. Unless you're in the position of people going "huh?" when you're saying zhongguo, just forget about it and move on. With reference to how you hear it, it might just be a personal mondegreen for you (although a wiki trawl suggests Hobson jobson may be more apt). Don't panic, there's always bopomofo. Pinyin was created by Russians so is a little crazy but at least it makes more sense than written modern Vietnamese which is based on French pronunciation... 1
Angelina Posted February 14, 2015 at 03:47 PM Report Posted February 14, 2015 at 03:47 PM With reference to how you hear it, it might just be a personal mondegreen for you 《李肯》 hahahahaha http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTY1NTUxNjMy.html 1
savah Posted February 15, 2015 at 10:23 AM Author Report Posted February 15, 2015 at 10:23 AM We are all human beings. We need each other. We don't have to hurt people instead of being friendly. What is the big deal? What did I do wrong? If I did, I apologize to make up for the wrong to restore normalcy and peace. @roddy, now it's your turn to apologize for calling me names. I demand it. We don't need to make a fuss out of it. Let's settle things at that and make peace. People are learning as they are going. They are prone to make mistakes. I have been raising a legitimate question, not being trolling as an idiot. Someone said, l'eau is pronounced as (lo), not 'e','a' and 'u'. Everyone knows that. The French 'l'eau' sounds unequivocally only one sound of '(lo), not like 'zhong' sounding either 'jong' or 'jung', according to various dictionaries, confusing people as to determining which is a right one. I even thought of a need to invent 'zhung', to differentiate one from the other. Renzhe said, 'zhong' sounds 'tsung'. contradicting the medial 'o', and then said 'u' and 'o' are the same. I think that requires an explanation to convince people of 'zhong' being the sign of one sound, either 'jong' or 'jung'. aka 'tsung' a la mode of Renzhe.
renzhe Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:04 AM Report Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:04 AM Renzhe said, 'zhong' sounds 'tsung'. contradicting the medial 'o', and then said 'u' and 'o' are the same.No, I never said anything like that. I said that -ong is always /ʊŋ/. Always. The French 'l'eau' sounds unequivocally only one sound of '(lo), not like 'zhong' sounding either 'jong' or 'jung',The Mandarin -ong sounds /ʊŋ/. Always. /ʊŋ/. /ʊŋ/. /ʊŋ/. Now repeat that 1000 times. 3
imron Posted February 15, 2015 at 12:01 PM Report Posted February 15, 2015 at 12:01 PM I have been raising a legitimate question And not listening or paying attention to any of the answers because they disagree with your opinion. 2
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