The use of translating and improving Chinese

[ouyangjun]

Let me first get to my question, and then I will explain how it came up.  My question is likely a matter of opinion from person to person, but I'm interested to hear the forum members thoughts.  Does translating things from Chinese into English (or other native language) help improve your use of the Chinese language, or would time be better spent not worrying about translating it back, but just focusing on using Chinese in its native forum?

 

I've often thought to myself that translating songs or small articles from Chinese to English would be good practice for my Chinese, but have never actively pursued this as a study technique.

 

Part of me says it would be good practice, because it will make me get really familiar with the language and have a strong understanding of subtle differences between words, but another part of me says, "that is wasting too much time not moving forward learning new material, and time is better spent learning Chinese in its native forum and casting a wider net".  I can see an argument for both sides, and in practice have leaned toward the latter, but a part of me wants to also do the former.  

 

The reason why I have not really pursued translating native Chinese material into English is because.... it's hard.  I often find myself caught in situations where I'm asked to translate something into English for an overseas colleague, friend, etc., but once I have to translate into English I feel like I lose the deeper meaning or the beauty of what is being said.  

 

In the past I often thought, "maybe I will translate things on the side as a hobby", until i realized that being good at translation cannot be hobby, but must be taken seriously... fact is, translation from Chinese to English is not easy.  The ones I'm most impressed with are the simultaneous translators (check out a recent Sinica podcast for a fascinating discussion on simultaneous translation).

 

So back to my original question.  Would mixing in a regular routine of translating native Chinese material into English be time well spent, or will time be better spent not worrying about the translation and just running forward and forgetting about English?  Which will result in bigger long term gains in Chinese?

[li3wei1]

I think it would help, but should not be a huge part of your study strategy unless you plan on doing something with it. Translation requires deep reading, making sure you understand exactly what they're saying, not the 'good enough' that is enough when you're reading for pleasure or language learning. Often the effort to figure out what exactly they're saying will involve cursory reading of a lot of other Chinese material, or conversations with native speakers, all of which will be good practice. Also, if you find it hard now, you'll find it easier if you practice it. And when you find it easier, you'll get better at it. You may find you have a use for the skill in your daily life. You've already got people asking you to do it. If you're good, and fast, maybe they'll pay you.

[ouyangjun]

@li3wei1 - first of all, make no mistake, the people who are asking me to translate are not potential money paying clients...  It's normally people like my boss on one of his quarterly trips to China or customers coming to see our factory.  I'm sure that drumming up real translation work is not easy, and I have not magically stumbled upon a potential money tree, furthermore, I don't have any aspirations of making any money with translation work, it would just be for self interest.

 

What you say makes complete sense about the effort going into translation.  I guess where I struggle is where is that threshold?  If I'm doing it for personal interest and personal improvement of Chinese, when is 'good enough' enough?  To really improve my Chinese with it, would I have to treat it like a job, and at that point would I reach diminishing returns on learning Chinese and only get better at translation?  While I'd like to get better at translation, that is just for hobby, my real goal is being able to better communicate with local Chinese of all social levels.

 

What I want to avoid is spending a lot of time in translation with the goal of improving my Chinese, only to get better at translation and not improve my Chinese from an input of time effort and output of Chinese language gain that could be spent if only focusing on Chinese.

 

The reason I keep questioning this is because way back when I had the same question about learning characters.  My goal is communication, why learn characters was my original thought... but it turns out learning characters was one of the main things that propelled me to the next level and has continually let me grow.  I'm wondering if translation work as a hobby can be a similar personal gold mine.

 

(note:  Characters also gave me a deeper understanding of the culture and opened up a heck of a lot more language material... but I digress.)

[Shelley]

My text books always have a few sentences to translate from Chinese to English and some to translate the other way, so I am supposing it is considered good practice.

 

Of course they are always at the level of the lesson and so are not too difficult but I like it because it shows if I have understood the lesson if I can use the words and patterns I have just learnt.

 

I have also taken to writing little stories ( really short 1 or 2 paragraphs) to make me stretch a little from the level of the lesson. Not too much more but just enough so i feel I have mastered the grammar etc. I suppose it is like translating but I try to think in Chinese and not English, so that it is less like translating.

[Guest realmayo]

Interesting question. My first thought is to distinguish between a basic translation and a good one. A basic translation would force you to make sure that you understood the Chinese text, without being too bothered about how well your translation reads in English. So arguably that's not much different to close reading, and I imagine that would help your Chinese.

 

Doing a good translation would mean maybe a little bit more time spent thinking about the Chinese lanugage, but also a lot of time thinking about the English language too, so my guess is it wouldn't be that much more beneficial in itself for your Chinese language ability than just close reading of Chinese.

 

So that time is probably better spent on just Chinese rather than Chinese+English. But if you have fun doing it and it gets you more motivated, maybe it's a beneficial trade-off?

 

Yes it's an old poem not a contemporary text but I once spent far too much time obsessing over Wang Wei's Deer Park and it was fun even though my brain turned to mush for a while after.

[Lu]

I had a colleague once who had taken up literary translation as a way of learning Chinese better. If you translate literature, you really have to dig into what exactly this word or that turn of phrase means, what it does here, etc. It also forces you to understand (and/or look up) what every single word is doing and what every single sentence means. I read a quote somewhere once along the lines of 'translators are the closest readers' and that is certainly true. Nothing like trying to translate something to make you realise that it doesn't actually mean anything (government speak can be great for that), or the opposite: trying to translate something and finding that it has two or three layers of meaning, that you then need to somehow fit into the target language.

I've been translating pretty much full-time for almost two years now, and I think it has improved my Chinese somewhat, but honestly I couldn't really tell you how much. (Also I've been away from China for these two years, so my Chinese has also worsened because of that.) It has provided me with plenty new words I learned, but that's something you can also get from regular diligent reading. Possibly I now pay more attention to how sentences work (where it starts, what goes with what and why), and that might be something you don't get somewhere else. I think (I hope) that it's mainly my translation that has improved. If I read something for fun now, I'm usually attempting to translate some of it in the back of my head while reading.

Actually I think you should just try it. Pick something short, like a paragraph or dialogue from a book you like, or something else that is relevant to you, and translate it. You could even try something that has already been translated & published so you can check it against that. Translate, look it over again, amend for style, polish some more, check whether it still fits the Chinese, then check against the existing translation to see if you missed anything (or perhaps the other translator missed something. It happens).

Oh and if you ever need to interpret again: the two keys to interpretation are preparation and concentration. (This is my opinion/advice, other interpreters present might have other takes on it.) It's a different trick from translation.

Edited to add:

The reason why I have not really pursued translating native Chinese material into English is because.... it's hard. I often find myself caught in situations where I'm asked to translate something into English for an overseas colleague, friend, etc., but once I have to translate into English I feel like I lose the deeper meaning or the beauty of what is being said.

Edited to add: I think for this, translation might actually be helpful practice. If you want to translate something well, you need to rethink the literal translation and find two or three other ways of saying this thing, then pick the best one. Practice this and you might also get the ongoing translation attempt that I now have in my head.

[anonymoose]

I think it depends on what level your Chinese is at. You shouldn't do anything that's so hard that it becomes painful, otherwise you will just burn yourself out.

Personally, I think translation is useful, but, even though it is harder, it is better to translate from English into Chinese. There are a couple of reasons for that. Firstly, translating from Chinese to English, a lot of time will be spent thinking about how to phrase the English appropriately. In other words, you will be focused on the English. This will not be very beneficial to your Chinese (even if you hone other skills).

Translating into Chinese, on the other hand, will force you to think about Chinese sentence structures and Chinese vocabulary. Your focus will be on the Chinese, and it will really help you discover where your shortcomings are, and if you work at it, help you to mend those areas.

Of course, though, English to Chinese translation is best if you can have a native speaker correct your translation.

[michaelS]

I'd echo the above sentiments that translating very official Chinese is fairly dispiriting - at work I'm often asked how to render into English a particular piece of 正式 academese, and my conclusion is invariably that there is no particular way of making that sound good in English, because it just doesn't sound great in Chinese (according to my limited understanding of Chinese, but native speakers will often agree)

 

But songs and stories and extracts from spoken language - why not? I agree with many of the very intelligent comments above, but also would like to stress that I think translation is worth doing just for its own sake - I don't doubt that there are more profitable ways of engaging with Chinese, that in the short to medium term will have a much better impact on your level. But translation is really satisfying. Maybe you will spend more time than you should focusing on English - hey, English is still a great language to wrestle with, why give Chinese all your attention?

 

If translation makes you spend time with material that otherwise you would not be spending so much time on, or thinking about so deeply (and I think it does), then it definitely has a positive benefit.

 

Finally, I think translation is a good way to get other people involved in Chinese books or shows that you would like to discuss. Laurenth's thread on 鬼吹灯 and realmayo's posts on 锵锵三人行 definitely got me interested in those two topics in a way that otherwise might not have happened, because it gave a slightlier easier way in to the topics, and because it was interesting in its own right.

 

Start a new thread where you post up translations, and let everyone else pile in and rubbish your English choices, or praise your auspicious use of meter, or go off and read the things that you've read - I think this kind of thing will motivate you to do more in general. But it depends on your motivation a little - maybe you are dedicated enough and immersed enough that you will be working on Chinese regardless of enthusiasm.

[imron]

If translation isn't a skill that you're interested in developing, then personally I think you'll be better of just spending more time on native content.

Lu is right in that translating will make you study the Chinese sentence more closely to understand exactly what it means (possibly on multiple levels), but if you are disciplined you can do that also when reading native content by thinking about word choices the author makes - e.g. why did they use 并且 instead of 而且, and noticing if/when you are glossing over things you don't understand and then using that as a trigger to go back and pay more attention to that part of the sentence.

 

but once I have to translate into English I feel like I lose the deeper meaning or the beauty of what is being said.

Like this.

[ouyangjun]

 

My first thought is to distinguish between a basic translation and a good one. A basic translation would force you to make sure that you understood the Chinese text, without being too bothered about how well your translation reads in English.

Good translation would be my goal.  I do a lot of reading with native Chinese material and can function in the language, but never think how that would translate back into English.  My idea with translating is that it would force me to dive deeper into the subtleties of the language.

 

 

 

Personally, I think translation is useful, but, even though it is harder, it is better to translate from English into Chinese.

Interesting... I never thought of doing that as a way to improve my Chinese.  The logic you laid out does make sense though.

 

 

 

If translation isn't a skill that you're interested in developing, then personally I think you'll be better of just spending more time on native content.

This is what I keep coming back to also... It's that old adage, if you want to get good at something, start doing it.  My long term goal isn't to get good at translation, but to get better and better at Chinese to get my Chinese to a "more native" level.  I worry that by focusing on translation I will improve my translation skills faster than my Chinese skills, which is not my longer term goal.  The idea of being more disciplined in my reading about understanding why the author chose the words he chose is likely good practice. 

 

Another reason I started thinking of this is because I don't really have a real study routine anymore.  I'm immersed in the language from a daily life standpoint, but I'm not actively pursuing a systematic way to improve. I've lived and worked in China since 2008, my wife is Chinese, the majority of my day is spent conversing in Chinese. I read native Chinese novels at least 3 times per week and I read native Chinese news articles daily.  The native reading is a big help, and it had me thinking that potentially by slowing down and doing some translation instead of just consuming volume if I'd see bigger rewards.  At this point I may be leaning more towards imron's suggestions and potentially throwing in some translation here and there.

 

Thanks everyone for the comments... they were useful.

[Lu]

Another reason I started thinking of this is because I don't really have a real study routine anymore. I'm immersed in the language from a daily life standpoint, but I'm not actively pursuing a systematic way to improve. I've lived and worked in China since 2008, my wife is Chinese, the majority of my day is spent conversing in Chinese. I read native Chinese novels at least 3 times per week and I read native Chinese news articles daily.

If I were in your shoes, I'd start leaning new vocabulary or get a teacher. Learning new vocab is especially great if you can put it to use right away (since you're speaking and reading a lot of Chinese); a teacher can be useful to improve other aspects.

That said... Translation is great. Just try it out and see how you like doing it.

[ouyangjun]

@Lu, good suggestion.  I've often thought of getting a teacher again.  I had teachers way back when,with one on one lessons for close to two years, which surely helped accelerate my progress, but I truly believe my biggest gains were made from self study.  I've often thought of getting a teacher to focus on my accent and try to get my Chinese more native sounding.  One of the problems I found with the teachers for westerners is that they are way too lenient.  

 

It wasn't until I joined a Chinese school that focused on teaching Japanese students that I thought the teachers were good.  That school had really good teachers.  Likely because the Japanese had a leg up in Characters, and rumor has it that a lot of Japanese companies pay extra money to employees who have passed the highest level of HSK, but I have never been able to confirm this other than the Japanese school for teaching Chinese...  But in any case, I think the Japanese and Koreans take the language study much more seriously and were able to pick up on it much quicker than western/American foreigners, so it wasn't until these schools that focused on teaching Japanese students that I felt the teachers were good... So I guess what I'm saying is any teacher is not worth the time and effort, but finding the right teacher and right environment is key, and I think your advice is sound.