Chinese people DON'T learn tones. That just means YOU MUST

[victorhart]

I was glad to read this discussion on tones. Since I'm a beginning student of Mandarin, I don't have an educated opinion on the subject.

 

However, I disagree with the affirmation that one becomes "too old" to learn in a natural, assimilative way. Though I do believe in a neurological window for children in language acquisition, I believe its importance is often overstated. I also don't believe that adults, because they no longer have the relative ease of children in acquiring languages, should adopt completely different methods. On the contrary: I'm of the school that we should imitate children's natural acquisition strategies as much as possible, since it is their approach, in addition to an (often overstated) advantage in neuroplasticity, that makes them more successful.

 

My Mandarin experiment, in which I try to learn to understand the language basically just by watching movies and cartoons, will be an interesting case study in acquiring tones. After my experiment is over (1,200 hours), I expect to then move on to productive language, namely speaking, mostly through conversation with natives. I don't expect to do any formal study or drilling, though I might change my mind. So it will be interesting to see whether my extensive listening phase, to which I will then add speaking to native teachers, will allow me any success in reproducing tones.

 

I have noted already that I hear tones in a lot of words, just by watching videos. I feel my brain is picking them up naturally. The verdict will come much later, however . . .

[AlexBlackman]

I disagree.

 

Whilst it might be true for some people, the belief that tones can picked up just from speaking Chinese simply hurts others.

[Flickserve]

 

I disagree.

 

Whilst it might be true for some people, the belief that tones can picked up just from speaking Chinese simply hurts others.

The true picture is probably like any human being - highly variable and dependent on an individual's motivation to learn a language and value its pronunciation. You'll get some perfectionists, more who are satisfied with a fairly accurate tones most of the time, some who think so long as they can be understood its ok and more who don't even realise they are saying it wrong.

 

I think the statement can be expanded to "tones can be picked up just from speaking, having feedback and repeating until correct". This is exactly what we try to do purposely in a lesson for efficient use of time. and we do it naturally with children (over hours, days and weeks). Being good at the listening of the tones and being able to reproduce the sounds are additional skills that take time to acquire - if the individual is motivated.

[haojun]

In my opinion AlexBlackman has a point here.

 

 

There are some people who have the ability (talent, gift - call whatever you want) to pick up a language's tones by listening to it. That is a kind of imitating and it will most likely take more time than just study the tones from the beginning.

1200 hours is 5 month listening/watching 8 hours a day! Ok, you probably do not watch those movies 8 hours a day. Let’s say you watch 4 hours a day (every day). That’s 10 month.

 

I am on thin ice here and need the opinion of others. But I would mean that a person, spending 4 hours a day doing tone drills for one or two month (I know that could be boring) and then learn Chinese words for the last six to seven month, 1200 hours in total, will have a far better understanding/listening skill then a person learning by just watching movies/TV.

 

It might seem to be easier just watching movies, but it is no real shortcut. Compare it with another Chinese discipline, Tai Chi. You could learn by just watching others practicing it, some people surly do. However, they will most likely learn a style where their movement/positions are not as perfect as they should be. Once learned wrong, it will take a decent amount to correct them. Learned with a master’s guidance, they will learn it right from the beginning and their learning curve will by far steeper.

 

My humble advice: Do not cheat yourself; learn the basics first and decent progress will be your friend.

 

BTW: There are many good tools for tone drilling on the Internet. If I may suggest a little book. “Intensive Spoken Chinese - New approaches to learning Chinese” by Zhang Peng Peng. It’s cheap and has a CD where you can listen to the different tones. It does not have a lot explanation in English. Therefore, I like this book.     

[Flickserve]

Haojun,

 

Totally agree.

 

 

It might seem to be easier just watching movies, but it is no real shortcut. Compare it with another Chinese discipline, Tai Chi. You could learn by just watching others practicing it, some people surly do. However, they will most likely learn a style where their movement/positions are not as perfect as they should be. Once learned wrong, it will take a decent amount to correct them. Learned with a master’s guidance, they will learn it right from the beginning and their learning curve will by far steeper.

 

Interesting that you brought up the learning of skills like Tai Chi into it. I was going to write about my sports experience as I have done a number of sports and had coaching in them.

 

I played badminton competitions to a league level without coaching but couldn't break the barrier to the really good guys. I hired a coach (who was an international world top 20 player) when I was thirty years old to start playing singles competition. I told him I was prepared to break things (and break bad habits) right down to the very basics to build up a strong base to go past my present ceiling. And boy, did he take me apart. We started off on footwork - just learning foot placement, number of steps, returning back to base. Not even hitting a shuttle. It was slow progress at the beginning. The coach did a lot of repetitions on drills and I just soaked it up. He brought slightly more details in on each lesson and I would write notes on the lesson and review them afterwards. With twice a week lessons (cost me a lot!) the first three months, I broke my old technique and started forming new ones.

 

Amongst the local badminton community (I was playing 4 to 5 times a week), a lot of people noticed the change and even now, years later, people comment I have good hitting technique, footwork and balance. The very interesting thing is that the coach spoke no english and I learn all the cantonese terms for the techniques from him. I wasn't into learning mandarin then which was a pity otherwise I could have saved myself some money on my present mandarin lessons! (He was originally from Wuhan and emigrated to Hong Kong).

 

During our chats, he said he never had a student like me before - one that would take notes, listen and practice intensely in the lesson. I even bought a camcorder to video my lessons and review. This was a real novelty in those days as the machines were very expensive. He got a real shock when I brought it out the first time. But seeing me pushing myself intensely made him teach me more. however, there are some people who pick up the skills much faster without needing to take notes.

 

I treat my mandarin the same. From this forum, I found out the tones are difficult to reproduce unconciously. I can reproduce them but very inconsistent which is exactly like my previous badminton lessons. So I need to drill, repeat and drill those c,s, z, ch, sh, zh. It's boring but I need to do it until its unconcious. I couldn't tell the difference by my ear at first, but now it's starting to come. But again, I need more drilling and then practice with the vowels. Then practice in word combinations and then practice in sentences. Boring stuff but has to be done. Lucky, I can take this sort of drilling for hopefully long term benefit. Sometimes, I worry that the instructor gets a bit bored by hearing me say the same thing over and over again! As with badminton coaches, I have found language coaches have differing ability in their capacities to drill.

 

Just recently, I found out an acquaintance is a TV presenter on Jiangsu TV. But she actually originates from Chongqing. So I asked how she got the job because Chongqing people will have their own mandarin accent. The reply was drilling during her university course and then exams on mandarin pronunciation....and this is for a native speaker who is an adult.

[Angelina]

The reply was drilling during her university course and then exams on mandarin pronunciation

 

It's called 普通话水平测试. Many Chinese people have to learn the tones, especially those whose native language is not Mandarin.

 

Of course, most languages in China are tonal, so it must be easer for them than for people who don't know much about tonal languages. 

[Flickserve]

It's called 普通话水平测试. Many Chinese people have to learn the tones, especially those whose native language is not Mandarin.

Of course, most languages in China are tonal, so it must be easer for them than for people who don't know much about tonal languages.

thanks for the name of the exam. It was still a surprise to find out even the speakers of the tonal language will still need training too get on to TV.

Your point is well taken. If I pick up a new sport, I am a relatively fast learner having done a few sports and been involved in competitions.

People with a background in multiple languages and tonal languages are naturally going to pick up mandarin faster. The point is no short cuts to some basic training and some of us are going to be slower than others. For me, I am not very good at languages but just using my experience at sports to keep a patient perspective and deal with the frustration of slow progress.

[Flickserve]

It's called 普通话水平测试. Many Chinese people have to learn the tones, especially those whose native language is not Mandarin.

.

Apologies for missing this point earlier but what is the difference with that and 普通话二级甲等 and a 普通话等级考试?

[victorhart]

 

I am on thin ice here and need the opinion of others. But I would mean that a person, spending 4 hours a day doing tone drills for one or two month (I know that could be boring) and then learn Chinese words for the last six to seven month, 1200 hours in total, will have a far better understanding/listening skill then a person learning by just watching movies/TV.

 

It might seem to be easier just watching movies, but it is no real shortcut.

 

I won't get into the details of my experiment, since I have done that elsewhere on the forum. However, I'd like to clarify a couple of points as they relate to the discussion.

 

I don't consider my method a shortcut. I do consider it a really fun way to delve into Mandarin. Since I have an extremely busy schedule and no need for the language, I'm only devoting about 40 minutes to video and will take several years to get to the 1,200 hours. 

 

I believe there are better methods than mine--I'm doing mine as a fun and hopefully interesting experiment.

 

I'm sure you were just giving an example, but I would not do your prescribed method. Instead, I would probably do just a little formal training/drilling (which would probably some typical drilling of tones--but I'm ignorant about that whole topic), but then a huge amount of listening (as I'm doing), speaking with a native teacher who will constantly correct me, learning characters, reading, and writing. I'm great at memorizing for next week's (or tomorrow's) exam, but I don't believe in memorization or straightforward vocabulary study for language acquisition, because the field of study is far too vast, the intricacies of how words interact too subtle, and the needs are too long term.

 

The Tai Chi example is interesting, but I believe there is one key difference. Our brains evolved for and with language. They do a really, really good job at acquiring languages (which is a phenomenally complex task) if you let them work naturally. Though I'm not too extremist and believe there are a some artificial/abstract techniques that can be helpful, I believe that most of what we do "differently" as adults is precisely what stunts the process: fear of making mistakes, ingrained habits and an unwillingness to shake them, not enough social interaction, predetermined ideas about our learning style (I'm visual, I need to understand the grammatical rules that underlie each sentence, etc.), approaching language abstractly, and so on.

[haojun]

Victorhart,

 

Ok, I thought that your video-study was your main form of your study.

 

Yes, your are right, it was an example. Everybody studies different, even two people taking part in the same class can have different approaches. I do not have the golden rule for studying Chinese. If I had, I would probably be famous  

 

Evolution has been and still is very complex. If it has made human beings especially good at acquiring languages? I am not sure that I agree on that one, but that would be another discussion.

 

And you are right, we do it differently based on the experiences we had in life. For me the listening and imitating approach has been quite good.  

[Shelley]

@haojun

 

I thought video study was victorhart's only form of study. I think he said

I would probably do just a little formal training/drilling.........

 

as opposed to what you suggested, not that he does this but what he might do.

 

I may be wrong but I thought this the whole purpose of his "experiment" was video only. There is a fuller description of his study on the forms somewhere, can't find it at the moment, maybe victohart will point you in the right direction.

[victorhart]

Gladly! Here is the specific thread.

 

I've just begun incorporating music to make use of time behind the wheel, which is somewhat of a change from my methodology. Otherwise, it's still just authentic videos.

[haojun]

Ok, now I've got it 

 

Good luck with your experiment!

[Angelina]

 

Apologies for missing this point earlier but what is the difference with that and 普通话二级甲等 and a 普通话等级考试?

 

It's the same thing. 普通话考试 is also used. 

 

The official certificate is called 《国家普通话测试等级证书》

 

二级甲等 is one level (http://baike.baidu.com/view/21049.htm 测试得分：87分－91.99分之间), it means you got 87-91.99 points)

[Flickserve]

It's the same thing. 普通话考试 is also used.

The official certificate is called 《国家普通话测试等级证书》

二级甲等 is one level (http://baike.baidu.com/view/21049.htm 测试得分：87分－91.99分之间), it means you got 87-91.99 points)

Thank you, thank you!

[oceancalligraphy]

While native speakers do have the advantage of listening to tones from birth, I don't think it's true that we are not taught tones.

 

At least in Taiwan, each time we were taught a new character, we memorized how to write the character, and the ㄅㄆㄇㄈ characters for the pronunciation, which includes the tones. Then we would drill them, similar to this video but with actual characters. Exams included filling in the ㄅㄆㄇㄈ, and tones counted.

 

Even now, using the ㄅㄆㄇㄈ input method on computers, we need to know the tones otherwise we won't get the right set of characters to choose.

 

That said, some people are better at tones than others. I know my peers and I were drilled pretty extensively, but it was probably less so for the older generation.

[victorhart]

yst, interesting . . . 

 

Does that mean that Mandarin speakers (I'm guessing hundreds of millions) over the centuries who did not have any formal schooling, and thus no explicit instruction or drilling of tones, were generally unable to produce them accurately?

 

(If that is the case, it's entirely different from non-tonal languages I am familiar with. In the case of the languages I know, formal instruction can provide a certain breadth of vocabulary, and adherence to the "standard" or "erudite" version of a language. However, uneducated native speakers can and generally do have perfect mastery of the language, and certainly no problems with pronunciation. Often, people consider that these uneducated speakers speak "poorly" or with many "mistakes," but that is only because they are comparing their speech to the standard, "elite" version of the language [and are generally unaware of more nuanced concepts in linguistics].)

[oceancalligraphy]

Does that mean that Mandarin speakers (I'm guessing hundreds of millions) over the centuries who did not have any formal schooling, and thus no explicit instruction or drilling of tones, were generally unable to produce them accurately?

 

Well, I don't think they were able to produce what we consider standard Mandarin today. In the past, people spoke their local dialect, which is not necessarily mutually intelligible among all dialects. They produced tones that were intelligible within the local dialect since those were tones that they were taught.

 

The common Mandarin we know of today is based on the Beijing dialect. It was made standard the Qing dynasty and was for official use, such as in the palace and to do business. This was then standardized by the Republic of China and PRC governments. Drilling is to ensure standardization, which only comes from a governing body. Most people know a home dialect and standard Mandarin.

 

Specifically in Taiwan, there are people who speak a Taiwanese-influenced Mandarin. This comes from having a better grasp of the tones for Taiwanese rather than Mandarin. For example, my grandparents were never formally taught Mandarin, but can understand some and speak it to some extent, but their pronunciation is strongly influenced by Taiwanese since that is their dominant language.

[victorhart]

Yst, that is really interesting. So, if I interpret what you're saying correctly, formal study and drilling are not necessary for natives to correctly produce tones in their respective dialects; however, generally speaking, they are necessary for people to be able to correctly produce standard Mandarin or Beijing dialect (unless, I presume, they grew up in Beijing, with that dialect spoken in their homes).

 

That still begs the question of whether non-natives must drill tones, which is what the OP states. I would still venture to guess that the answer is actually no (but I readily confess my ignorance), although your clarification about dialects presents one very good reason a non-native or native would in fact want to: if he or she has learned a dialect or non-standard tones and wants to be able to produce accurate standard Mandarin.

 

I wasn't aware that Taiwanese Mandarin had differences in tones, though that makes sense. At the risk of getting a bit off topic, I was wondering if you could help me understand how significant those differences are--in tones and other aspects of the language. The reason I ask is that I am self-teaching Mandarin. Actually, I'm just watching videos and now listening to music, and my viewing sources are mostly a mixture of standard Mandarin (Beijing dialect, I presume) in movies and Boonie Bears, with some Taiwanese sources. For example, I watch a the show for toddlers, Qiao Hu, which I understand is made in Taiwan, and some movies also made there or with Taiwanese actors.

 

Oh, and I test myself very occasionally with a Singaporean soap opera (Tale of Two Cities). I never actually watch that soap opera or any other drama except once every few months when I do a self-test of my comprehension.

 

So, are these three versions of Mandarin close enough, at least for a beginner, or am I setting myself up for significant confusion / problems down the line?

[oceancalligraphy]

There's a difference between the local Taiwanese flavor of Mandarin aka Taiwanese-accented Mandarin, and the standard Mandarin taught in schools in Taiwan. The standard Mandarin taught in schools is not any different than the standard Mandarin taught elsewhere - those are mutually intelligible and that's why those are considered standard. Most things on broadcast television, especially for children, are in standard Mandarin.

 

For Taiwanese-accented Mandarin, I've heard tones become switched, like fourth and second for specific words. In terms of sounds,

teaches children to distinguish between the sounds of ㄈ (f) in 飛 and ㄏ (h) in 灰. Commonly in Taiwanese-accented Mandarin, 飛機 sounds like 灰機. One possible reason this happens is that in Taiwanese, 飛 is pronounced with the ㄏ sound and people can't distinguish between the two.

 

In the same video tones are covered at 13:52. There's a similar video with Qiaohu to learn tones. In

, the school kids move their hands to mark the tones of the words they are saying, to make sure they are saying the right tones. I had completely forgotten this method of miming the tones until I saw the video. 

 

So back to the OP. What I'm trying to say is that even though we are immersed in tones from birth, it is covered in the school curriculum and we are actively aware of it. Also, not everyone is a natural just because of immersion, and some children need extra help.