Use of 了: 父亲为儿子买橘子，尽管十分辛苦，心里也是高兴的，越是尽到了父亲的责任，心里越踏实。

[anonymoose]

I came across this sentence:

 

父亲为儿子买橘子，尽管十分辛苦，心里也是高兴的，越是尽到了父亲的责任，心里越踏实。

 

Does it make a difference if the 了 is left out of this sentence? Any difference at all?

 

越...越... is often translated into English as "the (more) ___, the ___". However, in English, this structure seems to be only applicable to general (timeless) statements. On the other hand, 了 in Chinese specifies a completed action. Therefore, I suspect the 越...越... construction covers a different range of usage to "the (more) ___, the ___", but I can't quite put my finger on exactly what the difference is yet.

[Kenny同志]

Therefore, I suspect the 越...越... construction covers a different range of usage to "the (more) ___, the ___",

I am afraid so. Take a look at this.

[anonymoose]

Thanks kenny. You are right, but in the examples on that page, they are still stating general truths.

 

Maybe I should have been more clear. What I'm really getting at is the use of 越...越... with 了. I can kind of understand it, but I still feel I'm missing something.

[Kenny同志]

IMHO, the sentence is fine but the structure is not very common.

[anonymoose]

So is there any difference between incorporating 了 and omitting 了, or would you say they are exactly the same?

[Kenny同志]

The difference is very subtle. I can't explain.

 

If I were the author, I'd still use 了.

[Angelina]

1. You can't equate '越。。。。。。越。。。。。。'   with 'the (more)..., the...'  Just because they are the most often used equivalents in translation, it does not mean that both structures work exactly the same way within their respective systems. 

 

2. 

only applicable to general (timeless) statements

 

Aspect is more about space than time, almost all Mandarin verbs are timeless. 

 

 

3. It does not mean that the entire process has been completed. It means that something has been accomplished. 

 

4. I don't think what is said will have the same meaning if you omit 了. In this case the father is trying to fulfil his parental duties and the more of it he has accomplished, the more at ease he feels.  了 is used to show that he has indeed accomplished some of it. 

[Wen87]

1.越是尽到了父亲的责任，心里越踏实: 重点在“尽到”，表达一种状态。语气语调和语言风格与句子前半部分也较为一致，比较柔和。

2.越是尽到父亲的责任，心里越踏实：语气语调较为僵硬，像是在说教，与第一句相比，与句子前半部分的想表达的较为柔和的情感色彩不太一致。

3.越是尽到父亲的责任了，心里越是踏实：与第一句相比基本没有什么区别，差别非常细微，重点略微偏向于“尽到责任”。

 

另外，从句子整体的rhythm上来看，也是第一句比较好。

 

以上是作为一个native speaker的看法。如果有新的想法，之后还会再补充。

[anonymoose]

Wen87，非常感谢您很详细的解释。

[Angelina]

那么，我们会这样说吗？

越是尽到了父亲的责任了，心里越踏实。

[dwq]

I don't get what is meant by 'timeless'. Does it mean something like the difference between the two statements below?

1. The more quests one has completed, the higher reputation one has.

2. The more quests one completes, the higher reputation one has.

[anonymoose]

Yes, that's what I meant. The latter is a general statement. Without any other qualifiers, it sounds like a general truth. The former, well, I suppose you could also interpret it as a general truth, but it sounds, to me at least, more like an explanation for a specific situation.

 

The thing is, in English, you are forced to choose a tense. In some cases, such as your example, it may be that more than one possible tense equally well convey the same information (more or less). So under this situation, the one actually chosen may be arbitrary to some extent.

 

Chinese, on the other hand, not having tenses, means that if timing is unimportant, it can be left completely out of the sentence. However, in the example in my original post, the author chose to include 了, when he could very well have left it out. So what I'm really getting at is what factors made the author include 了 (for example, was he trying to describe just that particular situation, rather than a general fact)? And what are the differences between including 了 and not?

 

I just wish I could get a better 语感 for when to use and not use 了. But it seems very difficult to pin down any concrete rules (apart from the most basic ones given in any textbook).

[anonymoose]

OK, I think I understand what's bugging me about the original sentence now (as opposed to the one given by dwq).

 

In "The more quests one has completed, the higher reputation one has", although this uses the present perfect tense, it is still describing a hypothetical situation. In other words, the number of quest completed is not defined, so regardless of tense, this could still be construed as a general truth.

 

On the other hand, in the sentence I quoted, the author is describing a specific situation - something that is already fait accompli. Therefore, there is no question as to what hypothetical extent the father could perform his duties. In this situation, he has already performed the duty (buying the oranges), and therefore I found it strange that, on the one hand, the author uses the 越...越... construction, which leaves the possibility open for the duties being performed to different degrees, yet, on the other hand, uses 了 which seems to imply (unless my understanding of the use of 了 here is wrong) that he's referring to this particular incident of performing a fatherly duty.

[Angelina]

Chinese, on the other hand, not having tenses, means that if timing is unimportant, it can be left completely out of the sentence. However, in the example in my original post, the author chose to include 了, when he could very well have left it out.

 

Chinese does not have tenses, it has ASPECT. You can't leave it out just like you can't leave tense out of an English verb. 

[Angelina]

In "The more quests one has completed, the higher reputation one has", although this uses the present perfect tense, it is still describing a hypothetical situation. In other words, the number of quest completed is not defined, so regardless of tense, this could still be construed as a general truth.

 

This is perfective aspect. It is not the same as present perfect tense in English. 

 

I'm glad you got it. It's similar to present perfect tense, but can be used to describe a specific situation. It has been used to show how the father has already accomplished one part of the whole (performing his duties). 

[Angelina]

The Bible

 

http://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/s07/events/vendler57.pdf

[jiangping]

I agree that it sounds odd to use 越。。 with a specific completed action.

 

Is the 是 (越是尽到了...) somehow allowing the 了 to be there? Would the sentence still be grammatical if the 是 was removed? For example: 越尽到了父亲的责任，心里越踏实 -- is this grammatical?

 

I'm just guessing here, but maybe "尽到了父亲的责任" is being framed as a noun phrase, like in Kenny's example from his link in the first reply, "越是吃过苦的人...". If this is the case, then “是” is the main verb, so there's no contradiction between 越。。越。。 needing a "timeless" phrase, and the perfective 了 pointing to a specific completed action, because the 了 is not attached to the main verb.

 

Could any native speakers provide more examples of verb + 了 appearing in the first part of a 越。。越。。 phrase?

[Altair]

However, in English, this structure seems to be only applicable to general (timeless) statements.  On the other hand, 了 in Chinese specifies a completed action.

 

 I think I know why you might say that, but I think the issue is not so much that the reference is something timeless, but rather something ongoing.  Also, describing 了 as specifying "completed action" is a reasonable shortcut, I think it can also be misleading.  In my view 了, unlike 完, does not actually say anything about whether an action is completed, but rather indicates a reference to a time after some boundary implicit in what comes before. 

 

I note that the comparison here is also not precisely 越...越..., but rather 越是...越....  My guess is that the additional 是 is preferable/needed so that the correspondence can remain between two "ongoing" situations, rather than between a bounded situation and an ongoing one.

 

My Chinese has many weaknesses, but I do not think that the quoted sentence, out of context, clearly specifies whether the father has yet given his son the orange or not.  At this point in the discourse, whether or not the act is completed is not what is at issue.  It is the idea of giving it that makes him happy, despite the hardship involved.  The 了 in this case does not reflect whether or not the fatherly duties have been fulfilled, but rather that the more he has fulfilled them or will have fulfilled them, the more assured he feels or would feel.  Leaving out 了 might suggest that the mere attempt to fulfill them or the process of fulfilling them would be sufficient to make him feel assured.  Using the 了 helps the reader visualize that the assurance comes only after the result of fulfilled duties is reached.

[Kenny同志]

I am sorry. My reply in #2 is misleading. As Jiang Ping said, 吃過苦的人 functions as a noun (adjective+noun) so it's completely different from the construction of 盡到了父親責任（verb+noun)

 

I can't think of any other example that uses 了 in a similar construction. 

[Kenny同志]

I've got one:

 

人有惰性，所以越是過慣了這樣的生活，就越不想改變自己。