Tiananmen's Bitter Legacy

[Angelina]

I was excited when I saw this article on how the Tiananmen incident has affected research. Maybe it is a sign of hope that this article is available for people to read at public libraries in China. 

 

It is certainly not good for scientists to avoid certain topics, to stick to their work without caring about the world around them, to resort to self-censorship for fear of losing their jobs.

 

Maybe things will get better in the future and people here will start coming up with original ideas. At least people are free to read this in China, maybe Chinese education will get better one day. 

 

"The most important question is not talent. It is the loss of vitality." In the wake of the Tiananmen crackdown, he says, Chinese intellectual life lost its edge. Without that, he notes, "They can train engineers and scientists, but the really original inventions won't come from China."

[studychinese]

How is that even quantifiable?

There is a hidden history of the Tiananmen Square incident. Bizarrely the whole movement initially sprang up in response to African foreign students having sex with Chinese girls. Then it mutated into a whole bunch of other grievances against the government.

[Angelina]

Interesting. 

 

The article is mostly about what happened afterwards. Many people left China or decided not to return, many people decided to pretend it didn't happen. Even those who were not involved had to choose between leaving China and censorship. It's good that we can read about it in China now. Does it mean that the Cultural Revolution II is over? 

[Demonic_Duck]

More likely it means the censors can't read English.

[Yorin]

 

Does it mean that the Cultural Revolution II is over?

 

Comparing that to the Cultural Revolution makes about as much sense as comparing every crook out there to Hitler. It will make you underestimate what happened during the Cultural Revolution.

Nevertheless, the level of media control and censorship is really depressing and it needs to go away, but it probably won't anytime soon.

I'd guess the placement of this article was just obscure enough (given that "Science" usually doesn't deal with these kind of matters, given that it's not published in Chinese and given that the article isn't mentioned on the magazine cover) that nobody noticed.

[Angelina]

You are right, the Cultural Revolution was <shivers> 

 

I was talking about intellectual life in China. It was getting better from the end of the Cultural Revolution until 1989, now it's more like sports in the USSR

 

I hope it will improve. Maybe they don't want to censor Science. Maybe they will understand that you can't have original ideas without freedom and you can't have science without original ideas. 

 

 @Demonic, I am not a native speaker, don't know. 

[roddy]

"Bizarrely the whole movement initially sprang up in response to African foreign students having sex with Chinese girls. "

What an odd thing to say. 

 

Angelina, I hate to say it, but I don't think that's a sign of political change, that's a sign of something slipping through a net. 

[Guest realmayo]

I have a new theory that Xi etc see some extremely tough economic times ahead for China and are clamping down on any kinds of dissent and channels for dissent not so much because they're worried about instability right now, but a year or two down the line.

[Silent]

 

More likely it means the censors can't read English.

Probably true in the sense that non-chinese material has a far lower priority for sensors. Only a relatively small number of Chinese know (decent) English and they are more likely to be able to get around the sensors anyway. So probably the priority is Chinese material and high profile foreign material. Something like Science with relatively few readers and little political material will get no attention unless it catches the attention of mainstream media.

[Angelina]

I honestly don't care about dissent, it's one government against an another, or some secret services, whatever. 

 

The problem is that China lost an entire generation of scientists, even those people who were not dissidents. Maybe they understood the mistake now. Or maybe this just slipped through censorship. 

 

 

Something like Science with relatively few readers and little political material will get no attention unless it catches the attention of mainstream media.

 

Yup. Many children of Chinese politicians are highly educated. The few readers are those who can afford to learn English and to go shopping in 欧美. The 老百姓 won't be reading Science. 

[Demonic_Duck]

Probably true in the sense that non-chinese material has a far lower priority for sensors. Only a relatively small number of Chinese know (decent) English and they are more likely to be able to get around the sensors anyway. So probably the priority is Chinese material and high profile foreign material. Something like Science with relatively few readers and little political material will get no attention unless it catches the attention of mainstream media.

Yep, that's basically what I was getting at. But equally, I can't imagine recruiting censors who are highly competent in English is easy - I'd imagine those with the best English would tend to be those with the least inclination to do that kind of work (for various reasons - better prospects available, more international outlook, valuing education which is the antithesis of censorship, etc.)

In other words, not only is there little point in censoring English-language materials, but also censoring them is much more resource-draining. Also, if the censorship of English-language materials was as extensive as that of Chinese-language ones, that would have the effect of pissing off foreigners, making them more likely to leave (and regardless of what some paranoid laowai might think, that's not something the government wants - if they didn't want us here, we wouldn't have been granted visas).

[gato]

I have a new theory that Xi etc see some extremely tough economic times ahead for China and are clamping down on any kinds of dissent and channels for dissent not so much because they're worried about instability right now, but a year or two down the line.

Judging by the various comments by Xi since he was elevated to the national role in 2007 (one was a speech in Mexico to an overseas Chinese audience in 2009 mocking the West for criticising Chinese governance), Xi is a true believer in the so-called "Beijing Model" of authoritarian capitalism.

He believes in tight government control of politics and culture (his summit with writers and artists last year was a reprise of Mao's Yan'an speech directing artists to serve as government propagandists), combined with a relatively market-oriented economy (company registration process has been simplified, Tencent and Alibaba given banking licenses, for example) with a state-dominated core (banking, telecom, energy, heavy industry, etc.).

His anti-corruption campaign has made him very popular with the public, while making him feared within the Party, giving him more power than any leader since Deng Xiaoping.

It's still too early to tell where Xi will take the country. Things will be clearer in the next two, three years.

[Silent]

 

that's not something the government wants - if they didn't want us here, we wouldn't have been granted visas

In general I agree with the view, but I think it's more complex. Even if the government didn't want any laowai in China, there's also pressure from companies to attract foreign expertise and business. There's also a desire to export Chinese culture and the desire for (positive) PR. Foreign students that learn Chinese culture in China may help in creating a positive attitude towards China abroad and in the future those university educated people are likely to end up in positions of some influence. When they know China, it's culture and the language that helps in creating business opportunities for China. Nevertheless I don't think the government likes the cultural influence and interference of laowai within China that much.From the point of view of the government it's probably more of a balancing act then this statement suggests.

[Angelina]

Good point.

 

Let's hope they will understand how foreigners in China want freedom (this does not have to be connected with politics in any way, I refer to the freedom to think and say what you want). They want a positive image of China? They better give us positive things to see. 

[Silent]

 

Let's hope they will understand how foreigners in China want freedom (this does not have to be connected with politics in any way, I refer to the freedom to think and say what you want).

As long as it's not political you can pretty much think and say what you like, just like the Chinese can. It's only when you get involved in politics and/or attract a lot of media attention that things have a real chance of getting nasty. Politics by the may is not necessarily just government politics, also interference in office politics is not appreciated. But then, also in the west managers don't like it if you are too critical about them or how things are organised. As a laowai you can probably push things a bit further without getting trouble then the Chinese can.

[Guest realmayo]

It's still too early to tell where Xi will take the country. Things will be clearer in the next two, three years. 

 

 

Well, I certainly agree with the first part!

 

Happened to read a useful reminder this morning that "I Have No Idea What’s Going to Happen in China and Neither Do You":

http://sinostand.com/2015/03/09/i-have-no-idea-whats-going-to-happen-in-china-and-neither-do-you/

[Demonic_Duck]

There's also a desire to export Chinese culture and the desire for (positive) PR. Foreign students that learn Chinese culture in China may help in creating a positive attitude towards China abroad and in the future those university educated people are likely to end up in positions of some influence. When they know China, it's culture and the language that helps in creating business opportunities for China.

Agreed. But if foreign-language materials were censored as much as Chinese ones, the result would be that those laowais would get a bad impression of China to bring back to their native county. On the other hand, if they're free to read a wide variety of diverse, uncensored viewpoints, they'll return saying "y'know, the censorship in China's not half as restrictive as people claim, those commies can't be all that bad after all." Result: government looks good, malcontents look like they're overstating the severity of limits to freedom of speech.

Also agree about the balancing act thing, but I think slackening up on the censorship for English language materials is a no-brainer for the government, all things considered.

[Silent]

 

Happened to read a useful reminder this morning that "I Have No Idea What’s Going to Happen in China and Neither Do You":

Sure one doesn't know, but exactly the same is true for any country. At best you can make an educated guess about what's going to happen. The lack of info due to censorship is a non issue. Sure, we don't know what happens in China, but is it any different for another country? E.g. it has been public knowledge for many years that US police is racially biased, but in Europe you see only very few news reports about it until it sparks large protests. Whether events stay out of the newspapers due to (self) censorship, because the media feel it's not noteworthy (happens on a daily basis/has no impact etc) or it's reported but buried in a load of other reports it doesn't really matter, the effect is pretty much the same. Often what is clear out there is not noticed. Actually in a way censorship may make it easier to find out what's going on, it gives an indication of what the censors worry about, what's on their mind.

[roddy]

"The lack of info due to censorship is a non issue."

Let me guess - you live in a country without much censorship.

"Sure, we don't know what happens in China, but is it any different for another country?"

Yes. It is.

"Actually in a way censorship may make it easier to find out what's going on"

That's quite the logical knot you've tied yourself in there. 

 

The rise in this knee-jerk 'we're all as bad as each other' cynicism that's taken place over the last decade-plus is depressing. Where would you like to be a reporter, Silent? Russia or France? China or Germany?

[Angelina]

 

 

Russia or France?

 

Russia because I like their language more. 

 

 

 

China or Germany?

 

 

Germany because I like their language more.