Tiananmen's Bitter Legacy

[Guest realmayo]

I don't prefer any glasses, I wish all glasses are 100% full.

 

That's the problem. You say that because neither glass is 100%, you will not make a judgement between the the 50% and the 25% one.

 

For me, that's illogical: if you think 100% if better than less than 100%, why won't you admit that 50% is better than 25%? Saying that nothing is pefect therefore you don't have to make any kind of judgement -- for me, that's not facing up to reality.

[roddy]

Lunchtime, I'll allow myself a post 

 

"I have no contempt for the US."

You think the US brainwashes its citizens, is complicit in the brainwashing of all the countries it is the de facto ruler of, forced its system of government on the unwilling nations of East Asia (and presumably elsewhere), and forces foreign students to pay for their own monitoring, plus you have personal experience of US censorship. And still no contempt? Or you hold all nations in equal contempt and are unable to see any differences between them? 

 

"You think there is no hope for China to improve? Why?"

Ha. That's a million miles from what I think. 

 

See you dinnertime. 

[Angelina]

Do you think I am stupid?

 

50% is better than 25%.  American society is more free than Chinese society. 

 

What I am personally interested is how to make all glasses 100% full. Instead of bragging how we are better than the Chinese, isn't it smarter to work harder in order to make everyone happy? 

 

I know nothing is perfect, but American society is closer to perfection than Chinese society in terms of freedom. What do we need to do to make all places perfect? 

[Angelina]

You think the US brainwashes its citizens

 

You know a government that doesn't? Tell me about it!

 

 

forced its system of government on the unwilling nations of East Asia (and presumably elsewhere)

 

How did popular elections in Korea start? If we have 'evil communist' China and 'democratic' South Korea according to you, how can we explain American involvement in the first popular elections in South Korea? Korea was ruled by Japan, the US nuked Japan, then started ruling South Korea. Don't forget the Jeju Massacre. 

 

And still no contempt? Or you hold all nations in equal contempt and are unable to see any differences between them?

 

No. Just trying to dispel the myth of evil communist China. No contempt for anyone. 

 

 

"You think there is no hope for China to improve? Why?"

Ha. That's a million miles from what I think. 

 

You probably know more about censorship (and other ills) in China than I do. Sounds bad.

 

But how can we start? What is the biggest obstacle in China? It's easy to make fun of people and countries, it will be difficult to help them. 

[Guest realmayo]

Just trying to dispel the myth of evil communist China

 

I think it's a bit patronising that you assume that several of the people writing on this thread believe in such a myth.

 

I also think you use the verb "brainwash" the same way most people would say things like "influences", "misinforms", "spins", "lies sometimes".

[Yorin]

@Angelina

 

At the outset of the discussion, you've called what's recently been happening in China the "Cultural Revolution 2". Now, you claim you need to defend China against people who label it as "evil", when I don't see anybody here who did that. The way you're shifting positions and using grandiose terms seems a little bit bizarre to me.

 

Using the words "better" and "worse" does not equal to "good" and "bad" or evil".

The world is not black and white. But it is certainly more than one shade of grey.

[Angelina]

I also think you use the verb "brainwash" the same way most people would say things like "influences", "misinforms", "spins", "lies sometimes".

 

I know, I didn't grow up in an English-speaking country, Slavic languages (and the people speaking them) are more rough. 

 

 

Now, you claim you need to defend China against people who label it as "evil", when I don't see anybody here who did that.

 

Post 24, Roddy: 

 

Within this context, describing anything as "western" is a cop-out. Five minutes later you're equating the west with the US and then IraqPresidentBushNSA blah blah blah. Democracy? Don't see the South Koreans, Japanese or Taiwanese voting it out. Freer press? Hong Kong seems to enjoy it. Rule of (even harsh) laws? Singapore copes nicely. Yes, none are perfect, but who's arguing for less of them?

 

The History Channel, Australia:

http://www.historychannel.com.au/classroom/day-in-history/532/jeju-massacre

 

 

The conflict heated up on 14 November 1947 when the United Nations passed UN Resolution 112 calling for a general election in the Korean peninsula under UN supervision. The Soviet Union, which was occupying the north, refused to comply with the resolution, so the UN Assembly adopted a new resolution calling for elections for a new regime in areas accessible to the UN Commission, mainly the US-occupied south.  

Thousands of people were detained in Jeju, sorted into four groups, A, B, C, and D, according to security risk. On 30 August 1950, the South Korean Navy instructed Jeju police to “execute all those in groups C and D by firing squad no later than September 6.” South Korean soldiers assaulted Jeju villages, executing men and raping women. When it was over, some 70 percent of Jeju’s 230 villages had been burned and some 14,373 people killed as victims of the targeted killing, according to South Korea’s Truth Commission. The estimated total death toll was as high as 30,000

[Yorin]

 

Post 24, Roddy

 

Don't see "China is evil" anywhere there.

[Silent]

 

I also think you use the verb "brainwash" the same way most people would say things like "influences", "misinforms", "spins", "lies sometimes".

I think the definition of brainwashing contains an element of force. In that sense you're probably right it's not brainwashing. The repeated and quite systematic way some countries/regimes/people are portrayed in a certain way makes that I think that brainwashing is not that unreasonable a qualification. But of course it's not just government/politics but also the media that are to blame for it. No matter how you call it, the result is the same people tend to have extremely skewed views about those countries/regimes/people and more truthful nuanced views tend to be honed away because they don't fit their worldview and are  inconsistent with what they're fed by the government and media.

[Angelina]

He said there are no popular elections in China, unlike Jeju (RIP) and Hiroshima (RIP) American freedom. 

 

So how to improve the situation in China? Intellectual life here has been bad after 1989. It might not be an official Cultural Revolution, but it needs improvement. 

[studychinese]

Roddy, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

http://www.occidentalism.org/no-offend-chinese-women-the-origin-of-the-beijing-protest/

Genesis of Beijing protest in anti African protests.

[Guest realmayo]

Silent, you might also consider that:

 

rulers can exercise power not only by direct action or by keeping some things off the agenda, but by shaping ideology so that the oppressed come to regard their oppression as legitimate and unquestionable.

But how do the elite achieve this trick? Sometimes, the left verges towards conspiracy theory here, by believing that our rulers have the organizational skill to hoodwink people through the mass media.

This, though, needn't be the case. There are numerous cognitive biases which dispose people towards "neoliberal ideology."

 

 

More: http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2013/01/ideology-as-cognitive-bias.html

[Silent]

 

rulers can exercise power not only by direct action or by keeping some things off the agenda, but by shaping ideology so that the oppressed come to regard their oppression as legitimate and unquestionable.

I know, basically good pr, some carrot and stick action combined with the stockholm syndrome. I just try to make clear that it's the effect that's relevant, not the name you call it.

 

I often feel the stockholm syndrome is very common in western countries when I criticize it. Often the criticism is dismissed with the statement that elsewhere it's worse, often presented in a question form. Usually that it is better in the west is based on 'we're rich and we're free' And sure, we're rich, about the freedom I however have my doubts. I think there is a lot of censoring going on, it just works in a different way then the rules of the big firewall or the censor that goes through the newspaper before it's published. E.g. a while back I saw the movie about Gary Webb/Iran contra and there was mentioned at the that after uncovering the Iran/contra scandal he never managed to earn a living as a full time journalist. I don't know how true this is, but I think it's a fair indication of (self)censoring. A few of these examples and people may think twice or trice before publishing highly sensitive stories. This may be an extreme case, but every once in a while I hear about journalists intimidated and/or mistreated by officials due to what is published or researched. It's however hard to judge what is true and what is smokescreen. There are many ways to achieve the same effect and then there is the question of what is coordinated/complot and what is coincidental due to interfering but independent individual actions?

[emmanuel]

But some people predict collapse of China http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-coming-chinese-crack-up-1425659198

[Kobo-Daishi]

 

But some people predict collapse of China http://www.wsj.com/a...k-up-1425659198

 

 

 

There's a kind of rebuttal to David Shambaugh's piece at The National Interest magazine's web site titled "Sorry, America: China Is NOT Going to Collapse" by Chen Dingding.

 

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/sorry-america-china-not-going-collapse-12389

 

Chen goes over each of the 5 indicators for collapse in Shambaugh's article.

 

 

 

In a report from China’s Foreign Affairs University, Shambaugh was named the second most influential China expert in the United States. As such, Chinese scholars and officials will take his opinions seriously.

 

 

 

I guess, "知华派专家" means "China watcher" and David Lampton is the most influential .  

 

Still, being number two isn't so bad. Look at the Rolling Stones. Still going strong while the Beatles are...  :Koboshrugshisshoulderssmilie"

 

Kobo.

[Angelina]

I don't think it's possible to predict what will happen with China. No one can convince me that they can predict the future. 

 

There are certain problems in China with pollution and food quality, property prices are inflated. If they continue polluting the environment, they might make a big part of urban China uninhabitable. R&D and innovation are huge problems too. 

 

Politically speaking, China has close ties with many countries. There is a hard-working, ambitious workforce. People are learning fast. Who knows. Plus they are investing in things like nuclear fusion and much more, this mostly means financial investments, but at least they are trying. 

[emmanuel]

 

 

R&D and innovation are huge problems too.

 

How come?

Nowadays, China has huge influence on different research fields. For example, 身份证 v.3 is about to be released, this card contains a lot information about owner, such as bank account, personal data, insurance, drive licence, etc. 

You only mentioned pollution and nuclear fusion, but China has a huge progress in other fields. R&D and innovations are not problem in China (anyway, not a HUGE problems), some countries can only dream about progress that China already did. 

[Silent]

 

You only mention pollution and nuclear fusion, but China has a huge progress in other fields. R&D and innovations are not problem in China, some countries can only dream about progress that China already did.

I've too little information to make a real judgement about quality and progress of Chinese R&D. Sure they have shown some great results just look at the space program. This however is all applied, I think the plea is that they lack fundamental research and real innovation and that this is caused by censoring. I can see how there could be a link between the two, but I would not be surprised if priorities are just as or even more important for this. 

[Angelina]

@Kobo thanks for the link, there was something about China International Payment System (CIPS) in the comments. Sounds interesting. This will be a big change. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/09/us-china-yuan-payments-exclusive-idUSKBN0M50BV20150309

 

 

The launch of the China International Payment System (CIPS) will remove one of the biggest hurdles to internationalizing the yuan and should greatly increase global usage of the Chinese currency by cutting transaction costs and processing times. 

It will also put the yuan on a more even footing with other major global currencies like the U.S. dollar, as CIPS is expected to use the same messaging format as other international payment systems, making transactions smoother.

...

The launch of CIPS will enable companies outside China to clear yuan transactions with their Chinese counterparts directly, reducing the number of stages a payment has to go through.

 

@emmanuel R&D is a huge problem for China. Do you know how much resources they have been investing? The biggest problem is the lack of original ideas. Please read the article, the photos are attached in post #1. If you have problems reading it, I can try to upload a PDF file. 

 

A lot of hard work is being done here, especially my uni. I just met someone who is researching innovation. Maybe I should ask him to join and tell us more about innovation in China. His master's is a joint degree (China/USA/France), he is originally from Panama. 

[Angelina]

http://www.strugapoetryevenings.com/chinese-poet-bei-dao-is-the-winner-of-the-golden-wreath-2015/?lang=en

 

In 1978 Bei Dao and colleague Mang Ke founded the underground literary magazine Jintian (Today), which the Chinese government banned from publication in 1980. Bei Dao’s poem Huida (“The Answer”) was taken up as a defiant anthem of the pro-democracy movement and appeared on posters during the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. During the 1989 movement, Bei Dao was in Berlin as a writer in residence and was not allowed to return to China. He spent the next eighteen years ill exile, living in eight different countries.

 

PEACE!

 

I'm glad Struga Poetry Evenings had the courage.