fake recommendation letter of teaching experience

[fatimi]

 

Hi Guys,
 

I have a tricky question. A public middle school in Fujian is interested in hiring me and they have asked if I were able to "provide a letter of reference of 2 years of teaching as this is a requirement of their local government". 
 

I do not have any official teaching experience - this must be clear for them as they have seen my CV. According to my understanding this was a hint that I should get some fake recommendation letter just to be able to proceed with the Z visa.
 

I know lying is not nice and forging is illegal but seeing the school is OK with my skills and they just want me to meet administrative requirements is lessening my bad conscious. I am thinking of asking for a reference letter from a school were a good friend of mine works.

My questions are:
What is the likelihood that the school (the issuer of my reference letter) will be contacted?
In the unlikely event of a tough audit what implications can I expect?
 

Is there anyone having attempted the same? What are your views on this?

 

Thank you!

 

[Silent]

 

What are your views on this?

Simply put it's fraud and at least in theory there may be serious consequences (jail, loss of job for your friend, deportation, long term banning from China etc.). Many people commit fraud without it being discovered or if discovered with minor consequences.

 

I would not do it, I'm too honest for it but if you're right and it's an invitation to come up with some fake document it also says something about your potential employer. In the end it's your decision and it's you who will face the possible consequences when it comes out.

[Shelley]

If they are happy with your skills, leave it at that. You don't have the 2 years experience, so don't say you do.

 

There might be a very good reason why they want you to have this and if you don't, you may find you have difficulties carrying out the job.

 

From what I can tell almost all schools ask for experience, 2 years seems to be the norm, must be a good reason for this as far as I can see.

 

Don't go for this job, instead get your head down, do 2 years experience and then apply again with that under your belt.

[fatimi]

Thank you for your comment. I am also honest and I wanted to avoid biasing the truth by presenting myself as an experienced teacher but actually this is the second time a school "suggests" this.

A month before another school in another province wanted to hire me, I provided my documents (health exam, degrees, etc) then I was told that SAFEA declined my application (meaning I am not qualified for the "Foreign Expert Certificate") because my reference letter was not issued by a school but a business company.

 

What I actually do not know is:
-  WHO is the authority who checks the references? Is it SAFEA in China or is it the Chinese Embassy in my home country?

- WHAT will they check at all? Will they just call the reference person and ask about my working style? Or contact the school and ask for any kind of official proof of that that I used teach there?
 

- I think that this situation cannot have such dangerous consequences as long as they just give a call to the reference person.
- In case they want to dig deeper, to a level where the reputation of the issuer school is at risk, my issuer school will of course deny that they employed me. These consequences might be banning me from China or stuff.. :/   But again, knowing the popularity of forgery in China I forsee less chances for this scenario.  If anyone having tried this before or being familiar with the reference check process could give me some info I would appreciate very much! 
 

uhh, it has been a long comment.   

THank you in advance!

[ChTTay]

I think it's more common that schools make up references and experience/certificates for their applicants, rather than have the applicants do it. Often the teacher might wonder why they managed to get this job then, when they arrive, the school mention to them if anyone asks they should say they have "x, y and z".

If the schools you are applying to don't have much experience they probably just haven't realized the above is a lot easier than asking foreigners to forge documents.

[Angelina]

I provided my documents (health exam, degrees, etc) then I was told that SAFEA declined my application (meaning I am not qualified for the "Foreign Expert Certificate"

 

It happened to me this summer. 

 

Be honest! Tell them you don't have this paper! What's the worst that can happen? You won't get this job? Maybe there is a better job waiting for you somewhere else. 

[ChTTay]

Yeah I probably wouldn't make any documents you need yourself. You can't even deny knowledge of you documents come straight from you.

Generally though, I don't think "they" check out your information too much. I'd still advise against being creative with your documents though.

If you can apply to other places and stand a good chance of getting the job I'd just skip the schools that ask you for things you don't have.

[Mouseneb]

There are a lot of other reasons not to do it. The school would be able to treat you very badly, for instance force you to work many more hours than you had agreed to, pay you late, withhold your salary, put you in unsatisfactory housing, etc. You could not get any help from local authorities, as they would discover that you were not qualified for your working visa. Your school could blackmail you with the threat of exposing your fraud and again you would have no recourse. In addition, China is getting more strict on visa rules, and you might live in constant fear of being found out, fined, and deported. It's best for you to go by the book, this is also for your protection.

[Silent]

 

I am also honest and I wanted to avoid biasing the truth by presenting myself as an experienced teacher but actually this is the second time a school "suggests" this.

The simple fact that you're seriously considering to commit fraud means imho that you're not that honest.

 

IMHO it's quite simple to my knowledge 2 years of relevant experience are (officially) needed for a foreign expert certificate. You basically have three options to get it. Get the 2 year experience, commit fraud or let some-one else commit fraud.

[ChTTay]

The practice of "playing" with a potential teachers history or credentials is common place. I'm not sure how much of your reactions here are based on experience or just applying the norms of your own countries to this situation.

If we take TEFL certificates, the fact that almost anything with the word "TEFL" is accepted and used to grant foreign expert status in itself demonstrates that requirement for this credential isn't taken that seriously. If they ever did crack down on this, they'd likely decimate the industry. A majority of short term English teachers just do an online TEFL course for a few weeks and away you go. Most companies who accept applicants without a TEFL cert in all likelihood just make one for the potential teacher without their knowledge anyway. Just change the name on a worthless TEFL certificate they used for an old teacher. The authorities are never going to call up this random online TEFL provider to confirm the person took the course as, really, they know it's pretty worthless anyway. Allowing these certs to be used means everyone "wins" though. China has a supply of English teachers to help meet the massive demand for native speakers, Chinese students get a native teacher (regardless of how qualified) for a reasonable cost and people that want to come amd buy into the "Chinese dream" can do so. Its likely they'll just stay a year anyway.

I'm yet to hear of sny teacher who used a bogus certificate have that held over them as blackmail OR in fact anything other than having wages withheld used to encourage teachers to see out their contracts. It sounds pretty unlikely for a recommendation letter to be held over anyone.

Equally, it's pretty easy for a school just to tweak someones CV that says "5 months teaching experience" into "2 years experience". Again, its highly unlikely anyone is going to check this as it woukd involve finding an English speaking employee to track down this, likely foreign, company and call them up. There are just too many applicants for visas for this to be viable. As I said above, this kind of in depth checking would probably mean constricting supply of English teachers when demand can't be satisfied even in current conditions.

The crackdown and more strict attitude on visas is primarily looking at people who do not have the correct visa for what they are doing, rather than looking at how people have been granted their visa. If the OP was considering working on a tourist visa, that would certainly be a bad idea. It is true that visa requirements for teaching English have become stricter with the need for two hears experience. Like everything in China though, this can be bent if the school has the right contacts or just makes a few tweaks here and there. The OP's story itself is an example as, correct me if i'm wrong, I remember another thread where they mentioned they weren't a native speaker yet, as above, they are being offered jobs. This in itself is another example of how strict (or not) the requirements are.

From the other perspective, if you wrote you tutored underpriviedged kids back home on your CV, no one who processed your residence permit or expert cert. would query this. If you have a decent employer, they are likely to want to know details of this experience though.

Anyway, i am not saying the OP should write their own recommendation letters. In fact, I still reckon this is a bad idea. However, generally in China, a school changing your details or giving you extra experience isn't a rare occurance at all. The demand is too high and supply too low for anyone to really start taking a closer look at all these applications. The only way i can see they might do is if you got in trouble for something else - working on the wrong visa, criminal offenses etc

Anyway, id advise you to keep searching. Best not to make your own letters of recommendation.

[Silent]

 

The practice of "playing" with a potential teachers history or credentials is common place. I'm not sure how much of your reactions here are based on experience or just applying the norms of your own countries to this situation.

I know it's common place and risks are pretty low. I fairly explicitly wrote so in post 2. But does this mean it's ok? Also in the Netherlands and any other country a lot of fraud is going on without any (serious) consequences. Does that make it ok?

 

To be honest personally I can't be bothered too much about what is (il)legal, I can however be bothered by the possible consequences that may come with illegal behaviour. Maybe now no-one cares about it, but attitudes may change, sometimes quite sudden. If you consciously choose to commit fraud you should also know the possible consequences and be willing to accept those consequences. I least that's the way I see it.

 

As you wrote yourself:

 

I think it's more common that schools make up references and experience/certificates for their applicants, rather than have the applicants do it.

I think this is true, and the benefit of the school making it up is that it mitigates the risks for yourself somewhat.  If the school commits the fraud and shit hits the fan it's much easier to deny any knowledge of the fraud otherwise the responsibility is at least shared and does not fully rest on you.

[ChTTay]

I think this is true, and the benefit of the school making it up is that it mitigates the risks for yourself somewhat......

 

 

Yes, this is why I also recommended against making a fake recommendation letter yourself. If you find out a school has done all this for you then I wouldn't run for the hills. That goes for the OP and anyone else.

 

 

I know it's common place and risks are pretty low. I fairly explicitly wrote so in post 2. But does this mean it's ok?

 

In the context of the OP's situation, is it ok for them to make a recommendation letter, probably not a good idea as we've discussed. Are the general practices in China of altering teaching certs and CV's ok? I would say it depends. Without this, they probably wouldn't have any English teachers. Demand already exceeds supply. My salary would probably increase quite a lot but so would the fees schools charge which, in turn, would mean a lot of students couldn't access English lessons. At least, not with a legally residing native speaker.

 

It's complex and we could probably talk about it all day in person over a nice coffee haha next time you're in Beijing give me a PM

 

 

If you consciously choose to commit fraud you should also know the possible consequences and be willing to accept those consequences. I least that's the way I see it.

 

Again, I am not saying anyone should take part in any doctoring but it does happen regularly and the OP shouldn't be surprised if they find out it has happened without their knowledge. Actually, I was more suggesting they keep looking for a job that will just accept her how she is - rather than ask her for docs she doesn't have - as, in all liklihood, this school will likely just pull out some documents on file and use them for the application anyway. As you mention, this would reduce the risk for the OP considerably as they didn't do anything, they didn't even have knowledge of anything being done on their behalf.

 

So really, we're in agreement. Job done. See you in the next thread.

[studychinese]

Write a self recommendation. Don't commit fraud. Just just a recommendation from yourself assuring the reader that you have the makings of an excellent teacher. I doubt that they will read it anyway.

[Silent]

 

In the context of the OP's situation, is it ok for them to make a recommendation letter, probably not a good idea as we've discussed. Are the general practices in China of altering teaching certs and CV's ok? I would say it depends. Without this, they probably wouldn't have any English teachers.

In my opinion this is not a valid justification. If the rules are such that they would get insufficient English teachers I think the rules should be changed or actions (E.g. promotion) should be taken to increase supply. Sure, from the viewpoint of a school things may look quite different. When confronted with 'impossible' rules I would also look for a way around them as I can't change the rules, but ideally the real problem (the rules) should be fixed.