Suggestions on Kunming and Yunnan

[abcdefg]

Yes, Xishuangbanna Prefecture is a very popular domestic tourist destination now. At Yunnan's southmost tip, bordering Myanmar. It's no longer off the beaten track. 13 million visitors a year.

 

A huge resort and tourist center opened earlier this year just outside Jinghong. (A 15 billion Yuan development; by the Wanda Group.)

 

http://www.eastbysoutheast.com/wanda-opens-15-billion-yuan-resort-in-xishuangbanna/

[somethingfunny]

The last thing I want is to go to a Wanda.  I'll steer clear.

 

I've arranged to meet someone in Dali and was wondering if there was a way to go south out of Kunming and move around through the region southwest of Kunming and arrive in Dali, rather than going back up to Kunming and going directly from there.  Any ideas?

 

I'm interested in doing some tea related activities (mainly just buying some pu'er tea) and I'll go back through your posts on tea abcdefg as I seem to remember there being a lot of Yunnan specific information about buying tea but I was also wondering if it was worth going to Pu'er itself.  Or is it just a case of it being famous for tea only and not much else, and the tea being overpriced?

[abcdefg]

As to Pu'er tea, the best place to observe its production (growing, harvesting, processing) is Menghai 孟海县。It is close to Jinghong 京洪。(An hour or two drive.)

 

The city of Pu'er 普洱 (used to be Simao 思茅 and is still sometimes called that on maps of the region) itself was not very interesting. In addition to being a shipping hub, it is home to large, orderly cultivated tea plantations, not the wild old trees growing back in the mountains which characterize Menghai's tea fields.

 

Here is a little about those mountains.

 

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/48134-south-yunnan-tea-mountains/

 

If your main interest is buying some good Pu'er tea, the best thing to do is visit one or another of the wholesale tea markets in Kunming. Selection is terrific and prices are not inflated for tourists (since few tourists go there.) Spending half a day at one of these tea markets is an adventure in itself.

 

I must go now, but will return this afternoon with some thoughts on how to use Dali as a hub for a trip that includes some of NW Yunnan.

 

Need to ask how much time you have available to give you an intelligent answer. Also, what time of year is your trip? The time of year affects what can be seen in regard to the annual tea cycle.

[somethingfunny]

The trip is next month, just before Chinese New Year.  From the day I arrive in Kunming until the day I need to be in Dali I will have around 10 days.  Like I said, it would be nice if I could head south out of Kunming and then not need to go back through in order to get to Dali.  I don't mind rough bus rides too much and I quite like staying in places over night if that makes it easier rather than just using one place as a hub.  To be honest, I could tell you all the kinds of stuff I like (rice fields, old towns, natural landscapes, anything related to ethnic minorities etc.) but judging from your posts the kind of stuff you like seems to fit in line pretty nicely with my tastes so I'd be very happy to just hear your best suggestions of what you would do.  Although I especially like not having to book accommodation in advance.

 

Thanks for any help you can give me. 

[abcdefg]

Thanks for clarifying the time parameters. Glad to be of help.

 

Like I said, it would be nice if I could head south out of Kunming and then not need to go back through in order to get to Dali

 

Sure, you can definitely do that, bearing in mind that it’s less time-efficient than the usual routes which conceive of either Dali or Kunming as the hub of a wheel that has spokes extending outwards to other destinations of interest.

 

The benefit of doing it the way you have in mind is that you will get to experience lots of smaller towns and you will pass through plenty of ruggedly beautiful land.

 

Here’s one route to consider. It doesn’t involve backtracking and makes a rough circle. 1. Kunming >> 2. Jianshui >> 3. Yuanyang >> 4. Luchun >> 5. Pu’er >> 6. Lincang >> 7. Baoshan >> 8. Dali.

 

    

 

These maps are small, and only intended to give you a preliminary glimpse. I’d suggest looking at the route on a larger map of Yunnan.

 

This route is almost surely too much for the 10 days you have if done at a leisurely pace, and will require that you only pass through some of these places without spending much or any time exploring. The three places on that route that are worth the most time, in my opinion, would be Jianshui, Yuanyang, and Baoshan. Would allocate 2 or 3 nights in each.

 

Your Jianshui time could include a side trip to Tuanshan, and Baoshan time could include a day trip to Tengchong/Heshun. (It's about 2 hours away, making it sort of marginal as a day trip. Actually better to spend a night in Heshun.)

 

Would add parenthetically that Yuanyang really only needs one pretty half day for a sunset and another pretty half day for the sunrise. So if you are lucky with the weather, you can move forward on the afternoon of your second Yuanyang day. The terraced rice fields are flooded and very beautiful in February, but weather is unpredictable this far in advance.

 

You may get stuck in Luchun and have to spend the night whether you want to or not. It is really remote, way back in the mountains, and busses don’t run at night (for safety reasons.)

 

Lodging is cheap and plentiful there; not necessary to book in advance. Ditto for Pu'er, Lincang, and Baoshan. Jianshui, however, is popular enough that you might want to look at options in advance and reserve something which appeals. Same, of course, with Dali.

 

The first segment, from Kunming to Jianshui, could be by train (slightly slower but more comfortable.) The rest would need to be by bus. It will be difficult if not impossible to get all the bus schedules in advance. Lots of a trip such as this will have to be planned “on the fly.”

 

Footnote on Kunming: If I were going to be in town during this season, I would offer to take you to the tea market and show you around. I love doing that. But I just arrived in the US for my annual “visit friends and family” trip and won’t be back in China until the last part of February.  

 

Best of luck. Hope you have a great time.

[somethingfunny]

abcdefg,

 

Thanks for the great tips - lots to think about.  I've got my tickets in and out of Yunnan booked already so I'll probably try and get a more detailed itinerary drawn up towards the end of the month.  I might have some more questions about particulars.

 

It's a shame (for me) you're back in the US.  I'll be sure to make a post about how it goes once I'm back but this might not be until about early March time as I have a few other things planned for just after CNY. 

[abcdefg]

You're welcome. Hope your trip goes well.

 

During the fast parts, where you don't have time to linger, it may help to think of this trip as "preliminary recon" that will allow you to identify places to which you would like to return later for a closer look when you have more leisure.

[Angelina]

I love Yunnan, always want to go back and see the places I didn't see.

[JenniferW]

It might not be to your taste, but I remember visiting a stunning botanical garden at Meng Lun - Xi Shuang Banna Botanical Gardens. Not the sort of place you find many tourists! Got there on a bus from Jing Hong.

[somethingfunny]

I'm in Kunming now.  I spent a few days in Jianshui and a few days in Yuanyang.  I decided to abandon the idea of doing a route round to Dali as it became more obvious I would be too pressed for time.  I had originally planned to head out to Tengchong but I've decided to spend a few days in Kunming instead.  

 

When I arrived in Kunming from Chengdu it was snowing (it was literally snowing inside the train station).  I got the train to Jianshui, where it also snowed.  The weather was pretty horrible and made doing anything pretty difficult - even staying indoors to read a book was a bit of a nightmare.  Still, I managed to get around the Confucius temple and Zhu family gardens, both of which were pretty interesting.  Regrettably, I couldn't muster the enthusiasm to go to Tuanshan, and I'm sure missing that was a mistake.  Jianshui itself was pretty nice - it felt more like a proper town rather than a 古镇 or 古城.  There seemed to be a lot of almost finished new areas and lots of other areas cordoned off and primed for development.

 

I took the bus from Jianshui to Xinjie which took about four hours.  I've done a few hairy bus rides over the years and this was one to add to the collection.  The road itself wasn't too bad - no scary cliff side action (see later) - but the main problem here was that visibility in the fog/cloud repeatedly went to <10 metres.  To make things worse the bus was full of different groups of Chinese tourists all chatting about the situation at the hotels they had booked, with snippets of news coming through about freezing temperatures, ice covered roads, no electricity, no hot water, or no water at all.  I had resolved early on to try my hardest to make it to 普高老寨 regardless of how rough things got.  When I arrived at Xinjie, things were pretty rough - it was indeed freezing cold and there was thick fog.  There didn't appear to be any people interested in driving to 普高老寨 for less than 150.  Luckily I managed to find a few other intrepid foreigners and a driver looking for a fare rather than a windfall and we got there for 20 each.  The Chinese tourists from the bus had already made new bookings at hotels in Xinjie and tried to warn us of the horrors on the mountain.

 

The road was a mixed bag.  Since becoming a UNESCO protected area (and major tourist destination) they have evidently sunk big money into developing the infrastructure.  So the road looked pretty new, but poor planning meant that it was already completely trashed in places by all the construction traffic going up the mountain to build more hotels.  The ice had melted but there was still a lot of snow around, fallen trees and more, thick fog.  普高老寨 seemed to be pretty much on lockdown.  We looked around for a long time for someone to even ask where our guesthouse was.  Eventually we found somewhere that wasn't locked and they showed us where to go.  Upon arrival there was indeed no hot water or electricity.  The upside of this was that all the guests had to sit in the main room huddled around a fire.  After a couple of hours the electricity came back (then went off, then came back on and stayed on) which meant the electric blankets would work and everything was going to be amazing.

 

The rice terraces were pretty good.  We'd missed the chance to see them covered in snow (although this would have required an even hairier trip up the mountain) but they were still impressive.  There were a few things that bothered me though.  The main draw here seems to be for photographers looking to get the 'perfect' picture.  It seemed therefore that they had filled the fields earlier than they normally would, especially to cater for the Spring Festival influx.  Indeed, some of the surrounding mountains - not within 'perfect picture' range - were not filled.  I also heard that some farmers at one of the scenic spots weren't that interested in farming any more but were being paid by the government to continue.  Also, given that the tourist season is relatively short, they seem hell bent on building a huge number of hotels to take a large number of tourists all at once, giving the whole region a very construction site feel.  The whole area was also covered in litter.  Looking over the railing at any scenic spot would reveal piles of snack wrappers discarded by tourists.  Equally, in the villages there were also huge piles of rubbish in the alleyways, in the streams and even in the rice fields themselves.  Much was made of the ingenuity of the Hani people and the hundreds of years they had spent building and maintaining the fields - fields that had now been commandeered by the government, resulting in undoubtedly huge profits - but there did not seem to be any immediate benefit to the local population. 

 

I took the bus back from Nansha to Jianshui along the 'old road'.  I hadn't really processed what people had meant by the 'old road', just assuming it wouldn't be a four-way highway carved into the mountains.  It quickly became clear that 'old road' meant 'terrifying mountain track'.  Although this time there was no fog, enabling me to see clearly the imminent death lying at every turn.  At one point we hit a queue of cars and the ticket lady went to see ahead what the problem was, reporting back that they were apparently 'fixing the road'.  I asked her how long the journey was going to take and she gave me two times, one for 堵车的话 and one for 不堵车的话.  Again, I didn't really process the concept of 堵车 - after all, how can there be a traffic jam on a mountain track?  When there are articulated lorries passing each other in opposite directions at >90 degree turns, thats how. 

 

On both train rides between Kunming and Jianshui, and at the train station in Jianshui, I was asked to show my passport and ticket, which was checked and photographed (this has never happened to me, and I've taken a lot of trains in China).  Now, I realise people suffer much greater acts of discrimination, but it was fairly annoying having someone demand my documents on a full train apparently just because I'm white.  I mean, the whole carriage could have been full of Koreans for all they knew.  

 

I've now decided it might be nicer to spend a few days in Kunming looking around, rather than taking a 10 hour bus trip to Baoshan.

 

In summary, Jianshui and Yuanyang are definitely places worth visiting, I was just a bit unlucky with the weather.  I don't think the rice terraces were as nice as the ones I saw in Guangxi a few years back, but they might have given those the 'treatment' now as well.  I'm not a big photographer so the best experience with rice terraces I've had was around four years ago hiking through the hills near 西江 in 贵州.  There is no 'epic view' which keeps all the professional photographers away, but you still get to hike through the terraces and see everything happening up close, as well as some still decent views.

 

(Disclaimer:  Some of this has been exaggerated for effect (and to make myself feel like less of a whimp): the weather wasn't that bad, and it seemed like I was the only person on the edge of tears on the mountain roads)

 

edit:  The tofu, everywhere, was amazing.

[somethingfunny]

That ended up being longer than I had planned!  It wasn't as bad as I've made it sound and was certainly an interesting experience.

 

I'm going to try going to a tea market here in Kunming tomorrow (hopefully they haven't all packed up yet for Spring Festival) and chancing my arm at buying to 普洱 and 茶具.  Although, to be honest, I'm clueless and will probably get rinsed.

[Angelina]

Photos!!!

BTW there will be a seven-hour 高铁 from Hangzhou to Kunming after June :D

[somethingfunny]

Ah, yes, I forgot to say: Photos when I get home and have the cable to hook my camera up to my computer.

[abcdefg]

Many thanks for that fine trip report, Somethingfunny. Yunnan travel still has plenty of rough edges and it's not uncommon to encounter infrastructure issues. That old road between Jianshui and Yuanyang is legendary. I took it once, and that was enough. Glad you got to try the fabulous grilled tofu 烤豆腐 in Jianshui 建水。Be sure to have some 过桥米线 in Kunming. (Cross-bridge rice noodles.) 

 

I went to Yuanyang one year in January and suffered through similar weather conditions; actually, less snow than you found, but heavy freezing rain and dense fog. Was not at all pleasant. Yuanyang is always something of a gamble because much of the area is at high elevation (about 3,000 meters.) Weather there is notoriously difficult to forecast accurately. 

 

You might have already made your trip to the wholesale tea market by now, but just in case you haven't, let me make a few suggestions.

 

1.  Don't worry about vendors being closed for Spring Festival. They won't be. It's too early for that to have much impact now and besides, there are so many shops clustered together (hundreds; maybe even a thousand) that you will find plenty to see and plenty of places to try the tea even if one or two vendors have shut for an early holiday.

 

2. Start hunting after about 11 a.m. Before that, lots of the shops have not opened for business. Plan to make a day of it. Also lots of places there to check out teapots and teacups and other tea paraphernalia.

 

3. Kunming has two main wholesale tea markets (some people say three.) One is north and one is south; I don't know about the third one. The north one is closer from the center of the city and I usually go there. It is huge and diverse. Located in 金买小区 near 二环北路。It is usually called 金买茶叶批发市场。Maybe jot that down or put it into your smartphone.

 

4. Taxi drivers all know this place. If you get a driver who doesn't, that means he or she is new to Kunming. Ask the driver to call a colleagues for directions.

 

5. It is also served by the # 25 local bus for 1 or 2 yuan. But getting to it requires a hike (the bus stops several blocks away) and clambering over a freeway. On the other hand, getting from the tea market back to the center of town is easy, since the bus going that direction stops on a street right in front of the main entrance. For that reason, I usually take a taxi to the tea market and take the bus back from it. Makes the round-trip cost reasonable; (20 Yuan taxi plus a 1 Yuan bus in my case.)

 

6. Since you are mainly interested in Pu'er tea, I would suggest the following strategy:

-- Try several examples of 生普洱 and several examples of 熟普洱。We usually drink the 生 first when planning to sample both.

-- A 生普洱 benefits more from being old than a 熟普洱。As someone who is just drinking the tea, not investing in it, I would not spend the extra money for a tea that is older than 2008. Also, before 2008 the grading and labeling standards were less strict, so you could not always tell what you were getting.

-- 2012 was a real good year for most Pu'er. (Better than some which were older.)

-- You should be able to find a decent round cake 茶饼 for between 100 and 200 Yuan. (357 Grams is the standard size; some are larger and smaller.) Older costs more, but is not necessarily better.

-- Menghai produces great Pu'er tea, so be sure to include some 孟海 tea in your sampling.

 

7. Make a point of also sampling one or two Dian Hong teas 滇红茶。These are less well-known abroad, but are one of Yunnan's true gems. Inexpensive and full flavored. I am drinking some now as I type this.

-- Dian Hong comes as loose leaves. The best are picked in the fall, and are available in stores now. You should be able to buy a 市斤 (500 grams) for under 100 Yuan. Quality will decline markedly below the 50 Yuan per 市斤 price point, so stay away from it. Between 50 and 100 Yuan is the "sweet spot."

-- With Dian Hong, the most expensive is not always the best tasting. Price may just reflect difficulty of manufacture. 

-- The best of it comes from west-central Yunnan, Fengqing County in Lincang Prefecture. 风庆县，临沧州。Vendors will respect you and be less likely to cheat you if you make them aware you know things like that.

 

8. With any of these teas, don't buy too soon. Sample plenty in several shops. Write down the store name and address; maybe snap a photo of the entrance; ask for a 名片。Come back in an hour or two to the ones you like best. Price may even go down with a return visit. Take your time; view it as educational entertainment as well as simple shopping.

 

9. Most of these small tea merchants love tea and love their wares. If you show interest and appreciation, they are more likely to be helpful. I think of buying tea as a social interaction as much as a commercial interaction. Don't forget to ask for brewing tips and storage tips for the teas you eventually buy. Get the story of where it's from, how it was made and so on.

 

10. About bargaining 讲价，it's fine to do that if you do it with a smile. Since you might not have a good idea of what constitutes a good price initially, the best strategy would be so simply ask, "Can you give me a lower price if ... (something.)" And do that only after finding a tea that you like. Don't initiate a discussion of price too soon.

 

For example, "Can you give me a better price if I buy a lot?" or "Can you give me a better price if I return with 7 friends, all of whom love tea?" Sometimes it also works to simply ask in a courteous manner, "Can you make it a little cheaper?" 可以便宜一点老板？

 

11. Nobody minds if you take lots of photos there. Best to still ask permission inside the shops since it shows a polite frame of mind.

 

12. Several good inexpensive places for lunch right on the same street, just next door.

---------------------

 

Wish I were in Kunming at the moment; I would offer to take you to the tea market. I always enjoy going there. (But unfortunately, I'm still in Texas; won't return until after 春节。)

[somethingfunny]

Ah abcdefg, I knew you were in Texas, but this is the exact kind of response I was secretly hoping for.

 

I'll give you an update on how it goes.

[Chris Two Times]

abcdefg,

 

Brilliant write-up! I've been wanting to write this for a while: you are a fine model of an exemplary poster on these forums (oh! redundancy there?). I also like how you are doing it--splitting time between Texas and Kunming and continuing to focus on the language and culture and becoming a tea connoisseur in your own right. Bravo, good Sir, Bravo!

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Time

[abcdefg]

I'm blushing, Chris. Thanks for your kind words. Will continue doing what I can.

[somethingfunny]

If you're about abcdefg, I do have a couple of questions:

 

The bit I'm most worried about is spending a lot of time in a store sampling tea and then not buying anything.  I know, I know, I shouldn't feel pressured into buying something I don't want, and I won't.  But my usual tactic to avoid this is to not bother tasting anything at all!  When I'm tasting a tea, will they just rustle me up any old brew, or will they have me sit at the table and go through the whole process of brewing it in the little pot and pouring it into a small cup etc?  How many different teas would you say its reasonable to taste before they'd start to get annoyed with me not buying anything?

[abcdefg]

That's a good question and I'm glad that you asked. It's a concern that enters most people's minds.

 

These tea merchants in the wholesale market usually have two income streams. The first one, and it's the one which keeps them afloat financially, is selling large orders to retail merchants or bulk restaurant buyers. But much of that business is done on the phone or over the internet; sometimes at private dinner meetings away from the premises.

 

During the day they tend to get bored and generally welcome people dropping in who are interested in trying their tea. It gives them a chance to share their knowledge, sometimes to show off a bit, and to have their tea make an impression. They enjoy doing that; they enjoy "talking tea." It's not all about income for them, though of course they don't turn away a sale.

 

They typically invite you in and ask what tea you are interested in. If you reply, "Oh, I really want to find a nice ripe Pu'er 熟普洱 that isn't too expensive to take back home and share with my friends," they smile and say, "OK, then you absolutely must try this one that I just got in last week and this other one that's been a best seller for years."

 

They do use the small Yixing teapots to brew the tea, because that's the best way to have the tea come out tasting great. They don't put on a "ceremony" or  turn it into a "ritual." That's the same way they brew Pu'er tea at home for their family or visiting friends. It's not really much trouble when they have all the stuff set out on a dedicated tea table, there in the shop.

 

I always pay attention to their technique and at times comment on it. "I see you used more tea than I would have thought necessary in that small pot" or "Why wasn't your water boiling?" "Could I make that particular tea equally well in a gaiwan 盖碗 at home?" They like to talk about this stuff and explain it. 

 

The way it often goes is that when you try a tea, they ask how you liked it, and you may say, "It was a bit too sharp for my palate." They say, "OK, let me make you some of this instead, it's softer and more mellow." They are typically trying to please, not only for the sake of a sale, but for some other deeper personal reason. They want people to like their tea. (Sounds a bit strange, I know.)

 

I usually will try two or at most three in one shop and then that's enough. I have trouble keeping more than two or three kinds straight in my head. I usually try only one kind of tea per shop.

 

I write down the tea that I liked best, or ask them to write it down for me, along with a price so I can think it over. I say something like 我想考录一下。I usually am completely frank, and just say something along the lines of, "This one was real good, but I want to try others before deciding." Then I thank them and move along. They respect that, since that's the way they shop for things themselves.

 

Not every vendor will be equally congenial. If I feel unwelcome, I don't stay long or may not even try the merchandise. Usually Chinese hospitality prevails and the host is quite cordial. Yunnan is tea country and Kunming is a genuine tea capital, respected throughout China. People arrive from all over to try tea here. They are usually happy to be part of that action.

 

I typically spend some time tasting tea and some time looking at tea pots and such; sort of mix it up so that it's not overwhelming. Must confess that I like it best when I'm tagging along with one or another of my tea pro friends, because then I learn from them as well as from the sellers. But I also sometimes do go solo.

[somethingfunny]

Holy crap I drank a lot of tea today.

 

I caught your last post before heading off and it was all very valuable advice.  I admit I was a little sceptical but it was pretty much exactly how you described.  You go into a shop, tell them what you want and how much you're willing to spend, they'll recommend something, you ask to try it and then you sit around for half an hour drinking tea and talking about tea.

 

I spent about four hours in total at the tea market.  I actually only went to four different tea shops and drank tea, the rest of my time was spent walking around getting a feel for the size of the place, and making frequent trips to the toilet.

 

In the first place I drank a 生普洱茶 and in the second a 熟普洱茶 and made notes as I went along.  I'm not really an expert so my notes at this point were pretty much: "xxx元, 生/熟, tastes pretty good".  I was starting to think that in my price range there probably wasn't going to be much variation in quality/taste.  Then I hit the third shop and the tea they gave me, although the same price as the one I had in the second shop, was of a noticeably lower quality.  I get the feeling that the owner wasn't making it with the same level of care, but there was noway I was buying that tea.  I tried one more place and then headed back to the second shop to make my buy.  It ended up being just as much about how enthusiastic and knowledgable the owner was as it was about the flavour of the tea.

 

There was no hard sell anywhere, some pushed it a little more and others not at all.  I found asking for a name card and what time they were closing at made me feel more comfortable leaving without buying anything, but in honesty most of them didn't really seem to mind that much.  In fact, the place I bought the tea from, the boss wasn't even there when I went in, his mother had to phone him and tell him to come round.  Then when I went back later to make the buy he was just watching a movie on his laptop.

 

I also bought some 茶具 but I'm going to wait and get myself a nice proper set once I'm back in Chengdu when I have more time to do research and I don't have to be lugging it around everywhere with me.  I had a pretty interesting conversation about the merits of using 紫砂 for making 普洱.

 

In summary, it was a very interesting experience and I highly recommend it for anyone that's interested in tea.  It's also, obviously, a huge amount of free Chinese practice.  The only problem is that I had a proper buzz on after drinking so much tea and I'm only now returning to reasonable state of mind.