dashan 大山, Igor(from taiwan) and any others who have disgustingly good chinese

[Shadowdh]

I agree with Weixiaoma, the arrogance of the english speaking population across the globe is only matched by the ignorance displayed by most of the same... how embarrassed do I feel when I see a traveller (tourist, backpacker or otherwise) yell or shout at a non-englishing speaking person because "thats all you need to do for them to understand and hey they should know enlish anyway"...

I come from an english speaking country originally (NZ) and have done a fair bit of travelling in 4 continents and every place I went to I learned at least yes, no, sorry, please, thankyou and hello, (and usually "sorry I dont speak 'X'" (where X is which ever language was spoken at me)) personally I started to learn Chinese out of interest but then, due to my interest in International Relations, I have started to get more serious and use it within a career... if you wish to study as a hobby thats cool but to claim it doesnt matter as soon everyone will speak english is pretty arrogant...

[ExpatObserver]

I have met at least one white Canadian guy in Montreal with impeccable Mandarin. He lived in Beijing for 9 years, has a chinese wife (GF?) and for my money speaks as well as Da Shan (I have only heard Da Shan on TV).他 中文 说的流利。I would like to start with the chinese GF part, alas my present wife does not understand.

[geraldc]

I was watching CCTV4, and they wheeled out a little American girl called 小明华, who went on to do an impressive show of mandarin, interview, recited poetry, sang a song, did a comedy skit etc.

She was only 11, and had been raised in China, but with the number of expats around, there must be a large number of kids who are going to start appearing with native levels of Chinese.

[Lugubert]

From weixiaoma:

In the context of this thread, the posters here are learning Chinese BECAUSE THEY LIVE IN CHINA!

Not to mention that there are people who are interested in for example the mechanisms of learning languages, or of translation, or in similarities between languages of widely different kinds, or could imagine living in China in the future, or at least plan to travel extensively in China, or who realize which language will be the main one in the future No. 1 economical and scientific superpower etc.

Several of my study mates at the university go for an M.B.A., so for them, it's that last reason. The others apply to me.

[Navison]

Harpoon, your comments are to say the least, rather odd.

I am sure that in a few more years, bable fish and google will be able to do most of our translations for us good enough for routine communication, but that will not replace learning a language.

I am not sure about every one else, but before I start learning a language, the first thing I do is learn as much as possible about the culture of the people that speak that language. Then I learn the basic gramatic structure of the language, and then I start to study and find out what the language is about.

To learn a language requires motivation. I am sure that "hobby" is a motivation, but I know that it would not be enough for me. For me I learn a language because I want to become closer to the culture that that language represents, or is a part of.

I don't have definite plans right now, but I do know that the next few years of my life are connected to China, and for those years to be successfull, I must learn how these people live, and how they think, and to do that I must understand at least the basics of thier language. I did the same in Czechoslovakia many years ago, and I know that those many people that arrived in the Czech Republic years later, and use interpreters and translators are far behind me. Even in the first year or two when my Czech was very rudimentary, I know that my experience here was light years ahead of those that did not learn the language, or at least try.

Believe me, as a person that has lived and done business in many countries, learning the language will help a lot.

[Language Guy]

I'm afraid weixiaoma is right.

That's why I'm currently learning both Spanish and Mandarin.

Wish me luck.

LG

[Laska]

For all the English teaching that is being done in China, there are actually very few people that are reaching the level of competency required for translation, interpretation or for really professional presentation in business.

What's emerging in China is, in my mind, a new dialect of English.

I have seen enough "translations" done by "professional" PR companies on the mainland to tell you that there is a lot of room for improvement. But the professional bar is rising as awareness increases, I think. That means that there will be more demand for foreign Chinese speakers' translating and interpreting into their mother tongue(s) (the international standard).

Many Chinese speakers of English in Shanghai, where I live, are overconfident. I had a friend, graduate of Shanghai International Studies University, who went abroad in 2003 to join her husband in Canada. Her English was pretty good. Still, when she went to Canada she was writing emails to me for months about how challenging it was to communicate in a native speaker environment.

Another friend of mine broke through the glass ceiling at a JV company, but then was writing me for months to help her with her reports and emails. Her new boss in a European country, also not a native speaker, said her English was not up to par. It was her greatest challenge. But this woman's English was one of the best that I had heard in China.

[gougou]

I have seen enough "translations" done by "professional" PR companies on the mainland to tell you that there is a lot of room for improvement.

Similar words from danwei.org

[KTFO#1]

Hi there everyone.

Has anybody seen an American called Jeff Locker/傑夫on Taiwanese TV? His Mandarin is incredible! He's published a lot of books in Chinese and he astounded me everytime I saw him on TV speaking away like a native. He's like the Taiwanese Dashan, but without that kind of goody goody image that makes you wanna throw up.

Just wanna hear your opinions on him, and see if anyone has any links to video clips of him that we could post up here.

[Roee]

AFAIK the "lets learn English industry" in Taiwan is pretty huge. Probably an understatement and although people in Taipei, and some other cities, can manage with English it's actually very common to encounter those who can speak no English, even educated ones. I have friends who constantly use Mandarin in their work, in Taiwan.

Even in Hong Kong, that was under British rule "for a few years" it's quite common that people cannot speak fluent English, and in fact, just manage. If you could speak fluent Cantonese you'd have an advantage of a sort. So China? Phu-lease.

[magores]

I've been in Beijing for about 9 months. When I first got here, I told my employers that I wanted to learn Chinese, and speak better than DaShan.

A little later, I asked them, "How good is his Chinese anyway?" Their reply? "Ehh."

He's good for a foreigner, but not native sounding. (And he is a million times better than me, so far.)

I've met many other foreigners in Beijing that speak "more fluently" than DaShan.

--

The biggest issue re: fluency that I've noticed is:

-Foreigners speaking Chinese tend to say each word distinctly and "properly". Natives just talk.

-Same goes for Chinese that have learned English. They know the words, and the "proper" pronunciation, but... Natives just talk.

For example... As a native English speaker, do you pronounce the word "matter" with a "t" sound in the middle, or with a "d" sound? Do you say "a cup of coffee", or "acupa coffee"?

As an English teacher in Beijing, I'm trying to teach my older students to say

-"G'Mornin'" rather than "Good Morning".

-"See ya" rather than "See You"

---

Of course, I would love to be able to speak Chinese well enough, that some punk (like me) is bashing me for speaking it too properly.

[opper567]

I disagree. I think that pronouncing words correctly and not using slang is more correct over the colloquial variants. Colloquialisms can lead to confusion in communication on one end of a conversation and, in plain, just sound uneducated. I grew up having a Brooklyn accent and until I pronounced my "r"s and announciated all of my words, people looked down upon me (in New Jersey).

[in_lab]

Isn't a New Jersey accent very similar to a Brooklyn accent? Were the people who looked down on you people with Jersey accents or more standard accents?

[Guest realmayo]

I'd always assumed that when Chinese people said DaShan spoke Chinese better than most Chinese, they weren't exaggerating -- but nor were they saying he was 100% natural speaker. Instead they were referring to formal putonghua, which maybe few Chinese bar teachers and newsreaders and so on speak perfectly.

[opper567]

Isn't a New Jersey accent very similar to a Brooklyn accent? Were the people who looked down on you people with Jersey accents or more standard accents?

Yes and No. The Northern Jersey and Brooklyn accent are slightly similar, but still distinguishible. The Central Jersey accent is actually more or less close to the standard accent of the US (Northern Ohio, I believe); because of the large influx of educated people and immigrants who learned the correct pronounciation.

Even in Northern Jersey a Brooklyn accent is bad becaue its distinguishible and people from Brooklyn (particularly Italians, like myself) face bad sterotypes about crime and other nonsense.

Basically, everyone looks down upon it, except for New Yorkers.

[owen]

This young lady, born and raised in Beijing, wrote an award winning first novel in French after studying the language for a couple of years...

I don't believe that for a second.

People learning mandarin always hate dashan. And it makes me laugh .

But get real, put him on a phone and maybe.... MAYBE 1 in 1000 native speakers would think he's a laowai. His chinese is f*&%ing amazing. And when you consider the differences in accent (and education for that matter) within a radius of 100 miles (or should i say 里）in china, i think for all intents and purposes - actually forget the qualifier. You can just say he's reached native fluency. So searching for 'better' speakers seems pretty silly. Who's a better english speaker, Hugh Grant or Tom Hanks?? (just randomn celebs)

As for english learning in china... I don't know as much about china as in taiwan but my feeling about asia in general is that the rush to learn english is or has reached its zenith and alot of the original enthusiastic bubble is fast deflating as people come to the realization that all that work for a slight pay increase just isn't adequate motivation. Think of the reverse, I find it hard enough to focus on learning chinese when i am in china, fully immersed. Never mind being in North America with nothing other than sheer curiosity to keep me studying. It's hard to keep it going sometimes. I think i only do because i plan to return to asia.

And the often barely conversational levels of english of people who have studied it for some time (in taiwan as well as in china) are a testament to this basic inability to compel people to learn something for essentially vacuous reasons (face, few extra bucks, etc.). You see in teaching that the pupils who have a genuine interest in learning english (or any other language) in and of itself go much further. The alternative of course is getting them at a very young age, in which case anything is possible - this accounts for the incredible efficacy of most mainland european's english. But then parents start to wonder if the pricey english lessons are worth it.

Sometimes i kinda wish languages would just stay within their borders. Especially english.

[carlo]

I don't believe that for a second.

... I apparently wrote that, in my younger years. Do you read French?

http://perso.orange.fr/calounet/biographies/shansa_biographie.htm

Sorry, actually 7 years before first published novel.

For someone even more impressive, check out Francois Cheng, 程抱一, the only Asian-born member of the Academie Francaise I know of.

[Lu]

The alternative of course is getting them at a very young age, in which case anything is possible - this accounts for the incredible efficacy of most mainland european's english.

You think so? I sometimes get complimented on my English by Chinese, and I used to say 'well, I've studied it since I was twelve', but then they answer 'me too!', and my English is much much better. So now I give the more lengthy explanation: Dutch is related to English, Chinese not at all; and in Holland, a lot of the pop songs and the television programs are in English, so we hear a lot of it on a daily basis.

[owen]

and in Holland, a lot of the pop songs and the television programs are in English, so we hear a lot of it on a daily basis.

Ya, i think that plays a huge role. When i went to Holland recently for the first time that struck me as well. As close as any country could get to immersion in a language without it being the official spoken language i would think. Ditto for Germany and perhaps a few others.

Bottome line is, for anyone anywhere in the world, English is the easiest to learn because there is so much access to it by the truckload. I live in western Canada, and even though i live in an officially bilingual country, there isn't much french around. Still, even the little that there is (cerial boxes, government office signs and documents, etc.) has an effect.

... Being cognates doesn't hurt either.