U.S. students losing interest in China as dream jobs prove elusive

[mouse]

I think many people have somewhat confused idea of university education. If you're doing a medical degree, then you can reasonably expect to get some kind of job in that field after graduating. Apart from that, there aren't any non-vocational degrees that have that kind of relationship between subject and job. A university degree gets your foot in the door for interviews. I think it makes much more sense for people to study what they're interested in at university — and study it well — rather that try to second-guess the future job market and end up potentially studying something you hate.

 

Also, it's not clear at all from the article if this is a problem with study abroad programmes or with people learning Chinese in general. I know it's tempting to re-hash the same old complaints about the PRC, but they're not necessarily relevant here. You don't have to work in the PRC to use Chinese as part of your job, for instance. Also, the PRC is not the only part of "Greater China" that offers study abroad programmes and employment opportunities.

[Simon_CH]

 

 

I think many people have somewhat confused idea of university education. If you're doing a medical degree, then you can reasonably expect to get some kind of job in that field after graduating. Apart from that, there aren't any non-vocational degrees that have that kind of relationship between subject and job.

 

It's a question of degree though. If you study management your chances of landing a job in, well, management are pretty solid. If you study philosophy you know beforehand that you will have to create your own career, that there is no immediate demand from the economy for its graduates. But many people who studied Chinese did so with the expectation that it was closer to a management than a philosophy degree, and are now dissapointed that this is not the case, that there really isn't much demand at all for foreigners speaking Chinese in both multinational and Chinese companies. What I'm saying is that people extremely interested in Chinese language, culture or philosophy will still study study that at University, but those who are more career oriented might not. 

[Silent]

 

But many people who studied Chinese did so with the expectation that it was closer to a management than a philosophy degree,

Obviously in the hype it's easy to loose reality, specially for young, inexperienced people. Chinese however is from a career perspective just like any other language, pretty useless unless combined with another skill. There are very few jobs that only require language skills. Even teaching and the better paying translation jobs require more then just language.

[Simon_CH]

 

 

Obviously in the hype it's easy to loose reality, specially for young, inexperienced people. Chinese however is from a career perspective just like any other language, pretty useless unless combined with another skill.

True of course Silent, but I think they were also missled by media, universities and the general public who hyped Chinese as the language of the future, that anyone speaking it will be overrun with job offers, etc. It was these promises a couple of years ago, combined with the economic growth of China that lead many students to study Chinese in combination with perhaps another field, only to realize that they would have to spend much more time to really master Chinese. But that gamble didn't pay off for most of my friends, and probably not for the majority of such students elsewhere either. 

[Guest realmayo]

How good do we think these people's Chinese gets? Comparable to the level you'd expect a French or German person to speak English if working for a bank or law firm in London? 

 

What I mean is, are there loads people out there who have studied to a comfortable working proficiency in Chinese and couldn't find jobs? Or are the disappointed many those who never got to a high level in the language?

[Shelley]

How good do we think these people's Chinese gets?

 

Good point, also how many people hit a wall and thought this is more difficult than I expected and gave up.

 

It may also be that in the past any level of Chinese was better than none and now the requirements are getting harder to achieve.

 

There are also more people chasing fewer jobs.

[Angelina]

True of course Silent, but I think they were also missled by media, universities and the general public who hyped Chinese as the language of the future, that anyone speaking it will be overrun with job offers, etc. It was these promises a couple of years ago, combined with the economic growth of China that lead many students to study Chinese in combination with perhaps another field, only to realize that they would have to spend much more time to really master Chinese. But that gamble didn't pay off for most of my friends, and probably not for the majority of such students elsewhere either. 

 

Well, I got a degree in English because I love rap, so let me quote Public Enemy:

 

Don't believe the hype!

 

 

BTW

 

What I'm saying is that people extremely interested in Chinese language, culture or philosophy will still study study that at University, but those who are more career oriented might not. 

 

Do what you are extremely interested in doing and you will never regret your decision. Maybe there were people interested in something else, but chose Chinese because media told them Chinese is the future. 

[geraldc]

Parents of overseas Chinese won't let their children study Chinese at university as it's a mickey mouse subject, and won't provide them with a career. If in doubt, ask a Chinese parent.

 

However if you've got some level of Chinese and really want to follow your dreams, here's where not looking Chinese will instantly give you an advantage.

 

http://thevoiceofchina.eu/apply-now/

[mouse]

 

It's a question of degree though. If you study management your chances of landing a job in, well, management are pretty solid. If you study philosophy you know beforehand that you will have to create your own career, that there is no immediate demand from the economy for its graduates.

 

This is the problem, management is more like a training course (I'm not trying to do it down by saying that). Universities do not train people for employment. They educate people in a more general way. Employers care more about what level of qualifications you've reached rather than your specific degree subject. That means that a degree in Chinese won't automatically land you a job, but nor does it mean that a degree in philosophy will hinder you. Like I said, a degree gets you an interview (unless your CV and covering letter are really bad). Everything else is guanxi, charm, personality and luck.

 

 

There are also more people chasing fewer jobs.

 

This is true of course, but hardly restricted to jobs that require Chinese ability.

[Silent]

 

Employers care more about what level of qualifications you've reached rather than your specific degree subject.

This strongly depends on the function you apply for. Many functions do require or at least it would be very beneficient to have specific knowledge and thus education. E.g. a junior manager at a chemical plant is very likely some-one who studied management, chemistry or engineering. It's unlikely someone with a philosophy degree but without experience will be hired.

 

Sure, it's possible if some-one is really good in selling himself directly or through a network, but not the rule. Sure, after 10 years of working experience they will primarily look at the level, experience and motivation. When there are shortages, hard to fill positions and very general positions level only may be sufficient. As a rule however at entry level, the subject(s) someone has studied is absolutely relevant to land a good job.

[mouse]

 

As a rule however at entry level, the subject(s) someone has studied is absolutely relevant to land a good job.

 

In your example, yes. But most available positions for graduates are in the service industry and generic office jobs. In those instances having a philosophy degree won't necessarily help or hinder you. As you say, experience counts, but just sticking to qualifications I don't think the subject makes much difference.

[Shelley]

I think the fact that the candidate has managed to get a degree in any subject is all some employers want. It shows an ability to learn and stick at something for the required time.

Quite a few employers want to be able to mold you to their way of working so not having qualifications in the given field is an advantage for some, as is no experience a plus for some employers.

 

This of course is usually for entry level, fresh out of university applicants. It all changes as you progress through the world of employment and apply for jobs with specific requirements later in your career as you climb the corporate ladder to the top.

[Silent]

 

Quite a few employers want to be able to mold you to their way of working so not having qualifications in the given field is an advantage for some,

Without doubt this is true for some companies, and yes, a lot of jobs are little more then trained monkey business where you do little more then perform a few tricks. In some fields, like general management personality and communication skill may be more important then knowledge. However knowledge about the business subject, financial knowledge etc are generally a big advantage in an entry level job. Sure if you have a university degree in say 'the history of stamps' doors will open based on your level, I think however that in a majority of cases those are at the end of the line.

 

I don't have exact figures however I do know that once I've been shown a chart in which studied subject and position in the company was shown. Most people worked in a study subject related field exceptions were chemical engineers and technical physics, those people worked all over the place. Obviously only one company it may be a-typical. In the past in the Netherlands there have been voices to limit the access to 'useless' degrees as people with certain degree's had little job perspective but the degrees were still popular. I remember that in particular history was mentioned.  Sure, a degree opens doors, but don't underestimate the power of real useful knowledge in order to be be let in through that door.    

[Triling]

dream job? lol. 

in a country with a lower per capita GDP, why would you think that there would be lots of dream jobs?

I always wonder what industries all these Americans in China are working in

[MarsBlackman]

 

 

I always wonder what industries all these Americans in China are working in

 

These days, it seems to be finance, upper-level management, and high value added manufacturing.

 

Therefore, its not in the cards for most students to study Chinese exclusively if they want to work in China.  The people I know who have studied Chinese in college and landed jobs in management consulting, journalism, etc., landed those jobs not because they studied Chinese but because of how well they did in their studies. No degree is a golden ticket to the chocolate factory of jobs. Whatever you study, study it well.

 

I think this article is a lagging indicator of the rush to study Chinese simply for one's career instead of genuine personal interest. I find the people "studying Chinese for business" to burn out pretty quickly. Maybe not all, but most. 

[Simon_CH]

And as an update to the topic, it seems also that overall exchange students from developed countries to China are dropping: 

 

https://thenanfang.com/now-ever-world-coming-study-china/

 

 

First of all, the areas from which we’ve traditionally seen growth from is lacking: for instance, students from South Korea are wavering, while numbers from the USA are dropping. The second is that students from new areas are rising; Thailand has vaulted to number three, and students from Africa and Europe are rising.

 

 

So essentially what I said earlier; Chinese as a language is getting less interest in developed countries, and the number of new enrollments are going down across the board, which also impacts exchange students of course. But Chinese is still an attractive language to learn for students from developing countries. 

[Alex Whiteman]

The only two cents I have for this here is that the whole "Chinese who studied abroad - and so speak English (whoah!) - are returning and so we don't need foreigners anymore haha" thing is balls. I know it gets repeated all over the place but it's balls exiting the stratosphere at the speed of light. . . right up there with "haaallooo!!". I'd bet a Chinese person started it.

 

What this last year in China taught me is that what foreigners really bring to the table here is not "English" - not even remotely.

What foreigners bring to the table in their respective fields of work is creativity and problem solving skills most Chinese sorely lack (even more than English) because of the education system.

This difference just keeps coming up, meeting hundreds of people, Chinese, foreign businessmen who complain, participating in activities with both. . .

 

That there's a lot of foreigners teaching English obeys a slightly different set of reasons.

 

Good jobs are hard to get not because a handful of Chinese "can speak English" (big deal).

. . .and I think also not because everyone's trying to get by on some Chinese degree alone; at least not me (and that should be enough for what I'm going to say). Those I know who did study Chinese as a major are not doing that bad anyway.

I'd go as far as saying it's not because we "foreigners" are more expensive - but I understand people from developed countries have a different opportunity cost. Personally, jobs for the kind of thing I do, at the same level, pay twice here than back home. . .

Good, career oriented, jobs are hard to get simply because of the visa restrictions - restrictions that put pressure not so much on the individual but on the employer who needs an authorization to hire foreigners in the first place (and doesn't get it!) i.e. those foreign entrepreneurs who complain about the local employees have to either make do or break the law. Restrictions that say, at least partly, "the only value that foreigners can bring to the table is English. . . hallo. . .".

[Simon_CH]

I agree with you Alex that English isn't the main skill foreign professionals bring to China by a long shot. But I disagree about the reasons why there aren't more professional positions in China. I honestly don't think it has all that much to do with visa restrictions but with the way Chinese companies are run today. 

 

I simply think many Chinese companies have stopped learning from the West and have fully localised, even subsidiaries of Western companies. Chinese and Western business philosophies are so far apart that it's really hard marrying the two; Chinese find it tiring and unnecessary to adopt Western standards in business dealings with suppliers, clients and in internal business processes. It's this resistance to change (justified or not) that eventually also hinders Chinese corportations' international success. But if you give up on learning from foreign companies you also have no more need for foreign professionals, and Chinese managers find them troublesome and disruptive anyway. 

 

At least that is what I observe. As long as the executives are foreign there is need for (well-paid) foreign professionals who work for them. As soon as the top management localises much fewer professional positions open for us. 

 

I think with the slowing economy and the probable failure of many Chinese corporations to truly internationalise and succeed abroad in the coming years this trend might reverse again, but I don't see that happening too soon. Arrogance and hubris, once only credited to the West, is now commonplace in Chinese business and political circles. 

 

Others of course argue that Chinese companies, just like in Japan or S.Korea simply insist on their own business culture which is as valid and succesful as that of the West, and that foreign professionals who don't fit in or are unnecessarily disruptive (read: creative) have no place in such companies. 

[Angelina]

"The report shows that fewer students from developed first-world countries are coming to study languages, and more students from developing countries around Asia are coming to study medicine and engineering."

It says the number of language students from developed countries has decreased. Maybe they have decided to give more scholarships to engineers from Pakistan or to PhD students from Malaysia, and less to American students enrolled in language programs. It's not such a surprise. Nowhere was it mentioned that the interest for Chinese has decreased in developed countries. I am not saying it hasn't, but you need to show me the data to convince me, because it was not mentioned in the article.

Chinese business culture is not my cup of tea, I am not saying it's good or bad, or will eventually lead to a collapse or the opposite. I can work with anyone, I am not sure if I would want to work for a Chinese boss.

[Simon_CH]

@Angelina: We have posted stats earlier that fewer Americans study Chinese (and that the same is true in Germany for example) and now that there are fewer exchange students from developed countries in China. I am not sure what other stats you need. 

 

Personally I do like aspects of Chinese business culture very much. Agility, speed, decisive action, flexibility, the ability to keep a cool head even in tricky situations, and the confidence to enter new business areas are all aspects I have come to appreciate in my few years in China. But there are also many other aspects that I see as negative, and where I don't see much effort to overcome these when they clearly have negative consequences abroad.

 

So I want to avoid the impression that my view of Chinese business culture is all negative, that's not at all the case, I wouldn't be in China otherwise.