Lou Posted March 21, 2015 at 06:40 AM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 06:40 AM Hello everyone! I just worked through another lesson of the NPCR and this sentence wa part of its text: "对不起，我 来晚 了.” It should be translated as "Sorry, I'm late." Now, I get that 来晚 is used as a "to come somewhere late", but I really don't get the 了. I thought 了 was (amongst other things) mainly a marker of the past tense, but "Sorry, I'm late" isn't in a past tense...? The NPCR offers no explanation to this. I'm rather confused, therefor. Could you please explain why there is a 了 in this sentence and what use it has? Thanks! Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapler Posted March 21, 2015 at 07:17 AM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 07:17 AM It means he's actually arrived. Chinese doesn't have "tense". Instead it has "aspect". It's worth googling this. Anyway 了 here indicates whether the action (来) is complete or not. Compare 我来 (I will/am coming) with 我来了 (I have come) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic_Duck Posted March 21, 2015 at 09:59 AM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 09:59 AM I actually think here that the “了” is marking that the lateness is to an undesirable extent, the same as the “了” in “我吃多了” (I've eaten too much). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edelweis Posted March 21, 2015 at 10:42 AM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 10:42 AM Doesn't 了 here, and in “我吃饱了”, indicate something which completed just now? Edit：also 我饿了 I'm hungry now (I wasn't before(?)). Also, I am wondering how one says I'm late, sorry. I was late yesterday, so I said "sorry" to the teacher. I'm afraid I'm going to be late, please wait for me. Arriving late isn't polite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted March 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM So your guess is that it either marks the just completed action of arriving or the undesirable amount of lateness, as in "Sorry, I'm too late" (okay, that sounds weird in English, but actually is precisely how it's said in German). I personally think version two makes more sense, I know a pattern that's rather similar from German (Ich bin zu spät, the "zu" here being translated as "too", or, respectively, 了). The just-completed-action theory of course also works with the ways le can be used... Thanks for your help, I think I at least have an idea about the le now! :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelley Posted March 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM Have a look at this http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/ASGT185D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic_Duck Posted March 21, 2015 at 11:00 AM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 11:00 AM I'm actually not sure. To be honest my knowledge of Chinese grammar kinda sucks, I tend to go on 语感 more than anything. I feel as if the “了” in “来晚了”、“吃多了” is different from the one in “吃饱了”. I may well be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelina Posted March 21, 2015 at 01:07 PM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 01:07 PM Chinese doesn't have "tense". Instead it has "aspect" Aspect is not used instead of tense, there are languages that have both. I know a pattern that's rather similar from German (Ich bin zu spät, the "zu" here being translated as "too", or, respectively, 了). No, 了 does not mean zu. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between the modal 了 and the aspectual 了, they might even be used in the same sentence. 对不起，我 来晚 了 This is the modal 了 The modal particle le了 is used “to affirm the message and make the listener aware of its importance or relevance to the immediate situation. http://comet.cls.yale.edu/mandarin/content/Lele/grammar/lele-3a.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest realmayo Posted March 21, 2015 at 01:58 PM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 01:58 PM I have a question about one of the examples in that link: Wǒ yǐjīng chī le. 我已经吃了。I’ve already eaten. (Don’t cook for me any more.) By affirming the fact that he has eaten, the speaker emphasizes the point that he is not hungry. How would you say "I've already eaten" if you don't want to emphasise the point that you're not hungry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelley Posted March 21, 2015 at 03:16 PM Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 at 03:16 PM Maybe the 2 just go together, if you have eaten then you should not be hungry, unless you have not had enough to eat. I guess then you might say something along the lines of I had something but could eat some more. Not sure why you would still be hungry if you have already eaten but considering the place food has in the Chinese language ( one example: asking if you have eaten yet is considered a greeting) it probably is more of a polite thing than anything else. But I don't know, it is odd. Also why is "I’ve already eaten." equal to (Don’t cook for me any more.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooironic Posted March 22, 2015 at 01:18 AM Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 at 01:18 AM Not directly related to your question, but consider saying 不好意思來晚了 instead. It sounds more natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapler Posted March 22, 2015 at 04:26 AM Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 at 04:26 AM I'm actually not sure. To be honest my knowledge of Chinese grammar kinda sucks, I tend to go on 语感 more than anything. I feel as if the “了” in “来晚了”、“吃多了” is different from the one in “吃饱了”. I may well be wrong. Actually I had the same "feeling" too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiana Posted March 22, 2015 at 08:22 AM Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 at 08:22 AM I've got the feeling that beginning learners will be very confused by the unnecessary/ unexplained differentiations of 了 in the foregoing examples. I'd advise the OP to take the 了 in “来晚了”、“吃多了” and “吃饱了” as one and the same. It tells you what has just happened and is still the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted March 23, 2015 at 12:46 AM Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 at 12:46 AM "对不起，我 来晚 了.” It should be translated as "Sorry, I'm late." The English phrase "I'm late" is present tense and indicative mood and includes a finite verb. Those grammar words generally imply that the phrase is asserting a fact about the present and that it is grammatically complete. The Chinese phrase 我来晚了does not have any of these grammatical characteristics. It is neither present nor past tense; neither indicative nor subjunctive. It is also neither grammatically complete or incomplete. Analyzing the Chinese from the perspective of English grammatical categories can be useful for those who are familiar with English; however, pushing this viewpoint too far will end up tying you in knots of vague subtleties. Saying 我来晚 has the same content as saying: "I am informing you about my being late." It is perfectly grammatical, but not clearly informative in this particular situation. You might wonder: "late when?," since the reference is really too general. It is not clear how this information is relevant to the current situation. Saying 我来晚了, however, has the same content as saying: "I am informing you about my being late as of now." The relevance of this information is much clearer and is the normal equivalent of saying: "I'm late." What 了 adds to every sentence or verb is an emphasis on a boundary. The precise meaning of the boundary and which boundary is being referenced will vary from sentence to sentence and verb to verb. Often, often it adds a meaning of completeness to dynamic action or a meaning of starting when used with to describe a phase that normally has a static meaning. In the quoted sentence, "being late at some time or another" is not relevant to the situation. Only the fact that the stage of lateness has already begun is relevant. To indicate the start of a state, you normally use 了. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
歐博思 Posted March 23, 2015 at 02:36 AM Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 at 02:36 AM I was late yesterday, so I said "sorry" to the teacher. I'm afraid I'm going to be late, please wait for me. Arriving late isn't polite. 1)昨天我遲到了，然後向老师道了個歉。 2)恐怕要遲到了，請等我一下。 3)遲到不禮貌。 These are my best guesses. Please feel free to add more natural sounding or more correct translations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelina Posted March 23, 2015 at 08:40 AM Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 at 08:40 AM The English phrase "I'm late" is present tense and indicative mood and includes a finite verb. Those grammar words generally imply that the phrase is asserting a fact about the present and that it is grammatically complete. The Chinese phrase 我来晚了does not have any of these grammatical characteristics. It is neither present nor past tense; neither indicative nor subjunctive. It is also neither grammatically complete or incomplete. Analyzing the Chinese from the perspective of English grammatical categories can be useful for those who are familiar with English; however, pushing this viewpoint too far will end up tying you in knots of vague subtleties. I agree with the suggestion not to analyze Chinese from the perspective of English grammatical categories. However, I do think 我来晚了 has been marked for mood. Not the English indicative or subjunctive of course. What 了 adds to every sentence or verb is an emphasis on a boundary. The precise meaning of the boundary and which boundary is being referenced will vary from sentence to sentence and verb to verb. True when 了 is used to show aspect. Not in this example. How would you say "I've already eaten" if you don't want to emphasise the point that you're not hungry? 我吃了饭。 As a general rule (you can use it when you are not sure about 了, but don't forget that this rule has exceptions)： the first 了 is used to mark aspect, the second 了 is used to mark mood. 我吃了饭了。 了 can also be used as a discourse marker, 是了，对了, there is a lot to be said about the use of 了. So how to translate 不好意思我来晚了? "Sorry, I'm late " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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