jiao vs yao

[xyz123abc]

你好

What is the difference between these pronunciations: "jiao" (as in 叫) and "yao"  (as in 要)

 

I can't tell them apart.t. The reference says j in jiao is like j in jump, while y in yao is like y in yes, which for me is the same sound!

 

谢谢

 

[Frederik451]

Try putting in both "Yes" and "Jump" in google translate, (in two different lines) and then press the "sound" icon to hear the pronunciation. Maybe you can hear it more clearly then?

 

https://www.google.dk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=google%20translate

[Lu]

Better yet, put 要 and 叫 in google translate and press the 'sound' icon. No need to take a detour through English.

[xyz123abc]

IDK if you were mocking me, but I had done that already.

 

Can you describe the difference between the two sounds in words? Even if I can't notice the difference, let alone the TTS engine always produces the same sound, never any variation, that doesn't mean I can't produce both sounds. or at least try.

 

Thanks

 

PS: I must clarify: I can't hear the difference between J and Y in jiao and yao. I do notice a light i in jiao, like jjjj-e-o, while in yao it is only y-o. If the difference is only the final, we are cool.

[Frederik451]

 

 

No need to take a detour through English.

Very good point you have there

[Lu]

We weren't trying to mock you, just making basic suggestions. Your profile states you're in South America, unfortunately I don't know Spanish (or Portuguese) so not sure if I can write it phonetically.

 

It's more or less:

要 is yyyy-ao

叫 is dy-ao

 

The final is the same, it's the initial that is different.

 

If the google-voice is not working for you, perhaps you can try finding other voices elsewhere. There are some pinyin charts online.

[Geiko]

 

Can you describe the difference between the two sounds in words? Even if I can't notice the difference, let alone the TTS engine always produces the same sound, never any variation, that doesn't mean I can't produce both sounds. or at least try.

 

Thanks

 

PS: I must clarify: I can't hear the difference between J and Y in jiao and yao. I do notice a light i in jiao, like jjjj-e-o, while in yao it is only y-o. If the difference is only the final, we are cool.

 

Hi xyz123abc! If I'm not wrong, your native language is Spanish, and in Spanish the [t͡ɕ] sound (the one in jiao) doesn't exist, so it will take you some time to first identify it, and second, imitate it. Most Spaniards have the same problem when learning English, they pronounce "yes" and "Jess" the same way. 

 

The difference between the two sounds is that jiao's  [t͡ɕ] is a voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate sound, whereas yao's [j] is a voiced palatal aproximant. In other words, in jiao 1. your vocal cords don't vibrate (voiceless), 2. your tongue is situated between the alveoli and the palate (alveolo-palatal) and 3. the sound is formed by a stop (an explosion, an almost imperceivable "t" sound) plus a fricative (the ɕ part). On the other hand, in yao's [j] 1. your vocal cords will vibrate (voiced), 2. your tongue will be slightly behind (on the palate, not between the alveoli and the palate), and 3. the sound is an approximant, ie, articulators will approach each other but not narrowly enough. 

 

However, I guess that these explanations won't make much sense to you. The best thing you can do is find native speakers, ask them to produce this pair of sounds as many times as you need to start noticing those subtleties and when you finally see they're two different sounds, try to imitate them. 

[xyz123abc]

Thank you so much, Geiko!

 

I did understand the explanation with the help of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_of_articulation

 

I have managed "jump"-like sounds until know without suspecting it could be pronounced differently from my native Y sound! Nobody ever told me!

 

That's two birds with one stone

[LiMo]

Perhaps you could try finding a description of how to pronounce then on the internet. Then practice making the sounds yourself. At least then you would feel a physical difference in producing the sounds and so might find it quicker to distinguish them when you hear others.

 

Otherwise it's just a matter of practise practise practise. Eventually, you will be able to tell them apart as long as you pay close attention for a while.

 

To give a quick description myself:

 

"jiao" is pronounced with the tongue very flat and it momentarily stops the flow of air, kind of like making a "ch" kind of sound, whilst breathing out. I don't know the technical terms. Try a broad grin, and then flatten your tongue without actually forcing it upwards or curling it back, and exhale while clicking your tongue against the roof of your mouth.

 

yao is as you would expect it (I hope)

 

That's all I have at the moment. Good luck.

[anonymoose]

Isn't jiao just yao with an additional j- at the beginning?

[stapler]

Interesting. I only just realised that pinyin is actually more biased (for lack of better word) towards English than other languages.

[xiaokaka]

I think you should try to make the [tɕ] sound in jiao [tɕau] as a combined [t] (= pinyin ‘d’) and [ɕ] (= pinyin ‘x’). Likewise, you can think of pinyin ‘q’ [tʰɕ] as a combined pinyin ‘t’ [tʰ] and pinyin ‘x’ [ɕ].

But as mentioned before, I think the best thing you can do is to listen to as much Chinese as you can, until you can distinguish the sounds. Good luck!

[tysond]

There are still sounds expressed by pinyin that aren't in English.  So don't worry most people find sounds in Chinese that aren't in their language (or sounds that are considered "the same" in their language but are distinguished).

 

@xyz123abc a suggestion for you based on my experience.  You need to try to make the sound (obviously), and you also need to be able to hear the difference between the sounds (so that you can hear when you make it correctly, or self correct if you say it wrong).  Usually the hearing the difference is hardest because your brain has programmed the sound processing for so many years, and now you want to update the program.  It's hard and frustrating work.  But I found once I could hear the difference, I could pretty quickly fine-tune my mouth movements to make the sound, because I can make the sound and think "hmmm nope, wrong.... wrong again.... sort of .... wrong.... yes that's it".  Then just practice until you can do it quickly and effortlessly.

 

Good luck!

[Demonic_Duck]

For what it's worth, saying the [j] in “叫” is the same as the [j] in “jump” is only an approximation. If you learn to say “jump” in a perfectly standard way, and then try to use that same sound for “叫”, you'll still be saying it incorrectly. Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of thinking pinyin [j] and [zh] are basically the same sound.

[Lu]

Interesting. I only just realised that pinyin is actually more biased (for lack of better word) towards English than other languages.

I don't think that's true. Pinyin borrowed from English, but also from a bunch of other European languages. A e i o u are mostly the same as in Spanish, x is I think from Albanian, Russian lended some letters, etc.

[renzhe]

"X" is likely nicked from Portuguese, where it's pronounced a lot like "sh".

I think the problem is with the original poster's accent. Spanish speakers sometimes use the spanish "y" for both "yes" and "Jess", so it is probably an interference from Spanish.

Perhaps it would help to think of "yao" as "iao" (tongue does not touch the palate), and "jiao" as a "j" sound followed by "iao" (tongue touches the palate to produce the initial, then releases the pressure to pronounce the rest).

This is a very general discription, but maybe it helps.

[Michaelyus]

For a lot of hispanohablantes, /j/ i.e. Pinyin y- presents more of a problem. I don't think /j/ is ever turned into a fricative in Chinese like it is throughout Latin America.