Fossilized Chinese?

[roddy]

I was thinking about this today, after reading though a couple of topics on here.

American's say 'fall'. If you're from Britain you'll say 'autumn'. Originally, Brits also said 'fall', but this changed at some point after mass emigration to America. So the American usage actually reflects a usage lost in the UK.

Are there any similar examples among the Chinese diaspora - where vocabulary (maybe even grammar? No, that's too much to hope for. ) is no longer used in Putonghua (or Cantonese as spoken in Guangdong / HK) but remains current elsewhere.

It seems plausible to me that there would be. Any examples?

Roddy

[Quest]

in mandarin "I say" is 我说， in cantonese it's 我讲。"Why" in mandarin is 为什么, in cantonese it's 点解(i.e.怎么解)

there are a lot more examples like that.

[roddy]

Hmmm, but those are differences between Mandarin and Cantonese. What I'm wondering about is, say, Mandarin as it's spoken in Beijing and in Taipei, or Cantonese as it's spoken in Guangzhou and in Chinatown, LA- and differences where the language spoken outside China reflects the 'original' way, and the language inside Chinese has changed.

Roddy

[Quest]

Telecommunication made it difficult for such a change any new word is picked up globally rather quickly. but there should be some examples, i can't think of one now though.

[Quest]

Actually 垃圾 in Taiwan is "le se" (more like how you would say it in cantonese), but I am not sure if that's still considered mandarin or picked up from minnanhua.

[Tsunku]

I know what you're getting at Roddy, but I don't have any good examples since I'm not overseas Chinese.

A really bad example is the use of the word 同志. Here at my Chinese classes in China, we have Chinese teachers who have been out of the country for a decade at least. They teach us that 同志 is an appropriate way to address someone, and asked us to call each other that. However, once you get to China, if you go around calling people 同志 they're going to laugh because its become nowadays a slang for homosexuality. Its the same as if a foreigner came over to America and said that they were "a very gay person," intending to mean happy. While the word used to have that meaning, in America it doesn't anymore.

I know I have Chinese American friends whose Chinese is somewhat old-fashioned. In the US, many overseas Chinese communities tend to be out of touch with the mainland, and hence sometimes even more conservative. When my friend came to China with me her parents were convinced she was going to be kidnapped by bandits and sold into slavery. The China they left was a very different place from the China of today. Its not too big of a stretch to assume their language (as well as their attitudes about China) will also reflect the era which they lived in.

[holyman]

alright, no. 1, in my place we used to say 颈项(jing'xiang) for 'neck' but in beijing, and probably most of mainland, they say 脖子(bo'zi). i once met a girl from taiwan and she said my expression was 'old fashion', so i think they dont use 颈项 in taiwan too.

no. 2, a common one would be 有限公司(you'xian gong'si) meaning a limited liability company, in china its 有限责任（股份）公司.

no. 3, we say 汤匙(tang'chi) for table spoon while mainlanders used 勺子(shao'zi). to us thats more like a wooden scoop spoon. but teaspoon is the same, 茶匙(cha'chi).

no. 4, then we say a 罐(guan) for a tin can, like 一罐可乐, but mainlanders say a 听(ting), from the english 'tin' pronouciation.

no. 5, we use 马铃薯(ma'ling shu) and 番茄(fan'qie) for potatoes and tomatoes. mainlanders says 土豆(tu'dou) and 西红柿(xi hong'shi). to us 土豆 is more like peanuts instead of potatoes.

others not so important ones like:

keys 锁匙(suo'shi) for us but 钥匙(yao'shi) for them.

bicycles 脚踏车(jiao'ta che) for us but 自行车(zi'xing che) for them.

cars 汽车(qi'che) for us but 自动车(zi'dong che) for them, loaned from japanese kanji.

[smithsgj]

Where's your place, Holyman? Texas I suppose, that seems to be where most people are from.

With the following exceptions, all the terms YOU use are also used in Taiwan.

keys 锁匙(suo'shi) - never heard of that.

teaspoon is 小汤匙 not 茶匙

听 and 自动车 -- are these very common in the mainland? cos I've never heard of them. Have come across 小汽车 which I don't think is used in Taiwan unless the car is especially small (which of course in Taiwan they never are, everyone drives enormous beasts)).

Taiwan uses 藥局 and 書局 to mean chemists and bookshop respectively: in the mainland the more obvious 藥店 and 書店, right? What do huaqiao say for these? What's 藥房 mean, and where? It came up as the suggested next character after I typed 藥 ... perhaps it's the pharmacy in a hospital?

Also, Taiwanese used to refer to their mobile as 大哥大. This now seems to have given way to the mainland version of 手機. Again, what prevails elsewhere?

[Guest Anonymous]

Where's your place, Holyman? Texas I suppose, that seems to be where most people are from.

In Texas, or anywhere outside Chinese-speaking regions, there tend to be a good mix of vocabulary used due to the fact that not every Huaqiao comes from the same place. Sometimes we even have more than one "correct word" for a single thing therefore there is really no standard for "Huaqiao Chinese". Actually, maybe in California, namely Los Angeles, they may have a more standarized vocabulary due to a larger community, but not so in Houston, TX.

keys 锁匙(suo'shi) - never heard of that.

听 and 自动车 -- are these very common in the mainland? cos I've never heard of them

Me neither, not in Taiwan, mainland China, or here in Texas.

Taiwan uses 藥局 and 書局 to mean chemists and bookshop respectively: in the mainland the more obvious 藥店 and 書店, right? What do huaqiao say for these? What's 藥房 mean, and where? It came up as the suggested next character after I typed 藥 ... perhaps it's the pharmacy in a hospital?

This is a good example of what I was talking about in the very beginning of my post. All three of those words are used here in Houston to mean pharmacy and bookstore. Although I haven't seen a 書房 yet. Actually, 書房 means the study room in a house.

Also, Taiwanese used to refer to their mobile as 大哥大. This now seems to have given way to the mainland version of 手機. Again, what prevails elsewhere?

手機 is definitely used the most here. However, I've also heard 行動電話, which literally means "mobile phone" but I personally find it too wordy.

[skylee]

In Hong Kong, "藥房" means both the dispensary in a hospital or a drug store. Bookstore is "書店" or "書局". A key is "鎖匙". A teaspoon is "茶匙" or "茶羹". A bycycle is "單車". Mobile phone is "手機" or "流動電話". "大哥大", though originated from HK, is really outdated.

I came across the use of "听" for a can of drink in Yunnan last year. I didn't know what it meant until the shopkeeper explained to me.

I find it strange that 垃圾 is pronounced "le se" in Taiwan (heard it in F4 drama series). My Putonghua teacher said it is "la ji", and so does my dictionary.

[holyman]

锁匙(suo'shi) - never heard of that.

teaspoon is 小汤匙 not 茶匙

听 and 自动车 -- are these very common in the mainland? cos I've never heard of them. Have come across 小汽车 which I don't think is used in Taiwan unless the car is especially small (which of course in Taiwan they never are' date=' everyone drives enormous beasts)).

Taiwan uses 藥局 and 書局 to mean chemists and bookshop respectively: in the mainland the more obvious 藥店 and 書店, right? What do huaqiao say for these? What's 藥房 mean, and where? It came up as the suggested next character after I typed 藥 ... perhaps it's the pharmacy in a hospital?

Also, Taiwanese used to refer to their mobile as 大哥大. This now seems to have given way to the mainland version of 手機. Again, what prevails elsewhere?[/quote']

hee hee, i think i'll keep my birthplace a secret but i am in china for the 10th year.

we dont use 小汤匙, just 茶匙 .

in mainland china a 局 is an administrative office(in the ccp chain of command) so they dont use 局 very often. usually its the post office and the police station, 邮局 and 公安局/警察局 respectively. so the bookstore and drug store/phamacy, which is a business, goes with the title 店(shop). according to the differentiation of social classes by mao, a foreigner passport is eqivalent to that of a 局长, or the head of office at this 局 level. so we can use the soft bed when travel in trains and enjoy certain level of previlege. so when i first came to china, a farmer with enough money to get the soft bed in trains still cant get the ticket cos he hasnt reach his 'experience level'. in order to do that he'll have to produce a letter of confirmation(of his social class status) and a letter of recommendation from his working unit(his village council or something), and get the ticket that matches his social class. even the common police on the streets cannot arrest us anyway they like if we show our passport. that'll be a breach in the chain of command. in fact they'll have to assist us if required. they need an officer of equal or higher level to put us under arrest. but things are changing this few years. nowadays at some places commoners can get soft bed even without any recommendation letter.

书房 in chinese is the study in the house. i guess probably a loan word from japanese to use it as a 'bookstore', cos i vaguely remember seeing that when i visited japan. they also got 工房 for a workshop or small factory.

[holyman]

I find it strange that 垃圾 is pronounced "le se" in Taiwan (heard it in F4 drama series). My Putonghua teacher said it is "la ji", and so does my dictionary.

well the pronouciation plan in china changed a few times since the 1950s. so people from different time will learn different things.

it was 'le se' for 垃圾 during my dad's time, as well as 'ai'ban' instead of 'dai'ban' for 呆板(dumb, monotonous). then there are others like 'wei2 xian3' and 'wei1 xian3' for 'danger' (危险). for taiwan they dont follow the ccp pronouciation so there goes the rubbish...'le se'.

[holyman]

手機 is definitely used the most here. However, I've also heard 行動電話, which literally means "mobile phone" but I personally find it too wordy.

sometimes 移动电话 in mainland.

With the following exceptions, all the terms YOU use are also used in Taiwan.

i am not sure whether taiwanese use 土豆 for potatoes or not.

[holyman]

What's 藥房 mean, and where? It came up as the suggested next character after I typed 藥 ... perhaps it's the pharmacy in a hospital?

its a phamacy or a dispensary. older overseas chinese still use that and i heard that also in chaozhou hua and minnan hua(pronounced as 'yohbang'). my wild guess is its probably from shanghai in the 20s, which is again loaned from japanese. a lot of chinese words are from japanese. a few examples are: 哲学, 社会, 科学, 交通 etc.

[Quest]

both "le se" and "ai ban" sound like cantonese mandarin. In cantonese they are pronounced Lap Sap and Ngoy Ban.

[holyman]

u can always check wih dictionaries published like during the 1930s or so.

[trooper]

keys 锁匙(suo'shi) - never heard of that.

I have. I speak some Hakka as well as some mandarin. Hakka people use 锁匙 (pronounced suo si - the "si" is pronounced the same as the English "see") for key.

听 and 自动车 -- are these very common in the mainland? cos I've never heard of them

I've heard 自動車 before, but only in Japanese, where it is a literal translation of automobile.

Taiwan uses 藥局 and 書局 to mean chemists and bookshop respectively: in the mainland the more obvious 藥店 and 書店, right? What do huaqiao say for these? What's 藥房 mean, and where? It came up as the suggested next character after I typed 藥 ... perhaps it's the pharmacy in a hospital?

All three of those words are used here in Houston to mean pharmacy and bookstore. Although I haven't seen a 書房 yet. Actually, 書房 means the study room in a house.

Again from Hakka, I routinely hear and use 書房 for study and 藥房 for pharmacy.

we used to say 颈项(jing'xiang) for 'neck' but in beijing, and probably most of mainland, they say 脖子(bo'zi). i once met a girl from taiwan and she said my expression was 'old fashion', so i think they dont use 颈项 in taiwan too.

頸項 - I was reading some Ba Jin the other day and came across it (though what I read dated from the 1930s).

In Hakka, I use the single character word 頸 when referring to the neck itself.

Before you say these examples are Hakka and therefore not relevant to the discussion, I will say that the non-Mandarin southern dialects like Hakka and Cantonese preserve a lot more of the older vocabulary that Mandarin used to contain too. I presume a lot of this vocabulary was changed in mandarin when in the mainland, mandarin changed into putonghua around the 1950s, when Putonghua became based on the Mandarin of northern China, especially the variant that normal, working class people spoke in Beijing.

[smithsgj]

Holyman:

> i am not sure whether taiwanese use 土豆 for potatoes or not.

No, never.

Fascinating account of PRC class structure. I couldn't quite grasp the significance to the present discussion, btu it made veryinteresting reading anyway. So foreigners actually have a special status, it's not just that it's assumed they can't cope with the jianku pusu way?

In some ways it's to be expected that words for things like foodstuffs will differ from place to place. But when it comes down to parts of the body (like the neck) ... this is fascinating. You'd expect such words to be set in stone for centuries, and not vary much regionally, since everyone has the same limbs and uses them in basically the same way over time. Do you agree?

[holyman]

So foreigners actually have a special status, it's not just that it's assumed they can't cope with the jianku pusu way?

thats right. for the chinese by default the peasants are dumb, lawless and uninformed. then because of the population size they dun queue and they take seats anyway they like on trains, cinemas etc. if a foreigner unluckily encountered such incident, they might argue with the peasants and could possibly get himself killed(i heard a japanese was killed like that some 10+yrs back) in the process. then it'll escalate to an international level. so the best way is to set them apart. even for the hard bed train, the ticket office(esp those in big cities like shanghai and beijing) will try to put all foreigners in the same cabin.

sometimes i abused my rights in some places. the local travel agencies have connection with the train station so no matter how early u queue at the ticket office, u still cant get any cos they are all taken by the travel agencies from the backdoor. so the best thing to do is go to the station master's office, produce ur passport and say with an innocent and helpless look on your face hoping that he'll assist u with tickets. he'll usually assist u with great enthusiasm like writing a note and ask u to bring it down to the ticket office. then u will get what u want.

for coping with the 'jianku pusu', i suggest foreigners not to try that without much mental preparation. u might not like what u encounter...

[holyman]

well in taiwan sometimes they used 'atama'(japanese) for head in daily usage...

i think only mainland chinese use 胳膊 extensively for arm.