Really stuck!

[gingaginger]

Hey guys,

My name is Ben and I've been looking through the forums for some time now, I've taken advice on book recommendations, language learning techniques etc. My problem is this, I have been studying mandarin on and off for 5 years, I can barely hold a conversation especially when it comes down to specific topics of interest, although I spent a long long time making sure my pronunciation and tones were good enough for people to understand what words I'm using, so I feel I have succeeded there in a way. I dont particularly enjoy studying grammar so end up using phrases I've learnt instead of being able to construct my own sentences properly, this is partly because I'm one of those people who doesn't understand grammar in English anyway so grammar vocabulary is lost in me. I understand on average about 500 characters, which is one of the most enjoyable sides of the language for me, obviously a long way to go there though. I love the language, I'm just a bit lost, I feel like I missed some important aspects of the language early on, but to go back to the very beginning would be pretty depressing for me I think. So my point is what should I do? I love structure so if someone could tell me of how they got through certain barriers of their language learning, or how to develop a study plan I would be most grateful.

Thanks

[traunk]

First, I wish you the best in your language learning, and what I am about to say, although a little harsh, is meant for you you to make a positive change.

 

To me, it sounds like you already know you need structure. You already know deep down you won't make yourself study grammar, or practice talking, or whatever other area you feel your lacking in. My advice to you is take the ego hit, and look for a course at a language school, or university that will give you both structure and feedback. Consider starting at the beginning a form of paying back taxes for not studying right in the first place. Make sure when you commit to this class you make a commitment to yourself that you are going to do your best and hold yourself accountable.

 

 

I understand what your going through, and you have to choose to make the change. Here is my story. I started dating a Taiwan girl way back in 2001. Went to Taiwan in December, 2002 for 3 weeks, and decided that I was gonna learn the language. I did all kinds of "learning" for the next 10 years. At the end of it I knew probably a few hundred characters, a hundred words, and maybe 40 phrases. That is not learning. That is trying for a few weeks/months and then quitting. Then a little later doing the same dumb things again. At that point I didn't know how to self study well, and I certainly had issues sticking with it when life got difficult.

In 2012 I decided I was going to learn Chinese in earnest. I enrolled at the local university. I kept at it, practicing hard, and I built up my own little immersion bubble. When the class started I knew most of the vocabulary in that first book but, I couldn't understand the basic sentences it presented in each dialogue. Three semesters and one intensive summer course later I was able to talk. It may not have been great talk, but one on one a native and I could communicate without much issue. Fast forward to today. I have been self studying since January 2014, and I am still progressing. This week I spent half of an iTalki session telling my teacher about the story behind The Princess Bride. That was a lot of fun. I'm still not fluent, I couldn't go on a game show like Mike Sui, but I get most everything that goes on in normal conversation.

 

Anyways, all I am saying is if you really wanna speak it gird your loins and get to work.

[makochan]

Hi Ben, is your goal to improve oral fluency? or grammar?  

 

If it's oral proficiency, how much regular speaking practice do you get?  Like traunk, you may benefit from hiring an iTalki teacher or tutor and scheduling regular time to chat.

 

If its grammar, how about this book: Common Chinese Patterns 330 It has 3,300 example sentences.  Pay a native speaker to record the sentences and throw it in to Anki.  SRS all the sentences until it becomes automatic.

[Shelley]

Have you taken any classes or tuition of any kind or has it been self study only?

 

I understand what you mean by not understanding grammar in English and I find the vocabulary of grammar is a like another language. However you will have to bite the bullet and learn grammar.  I found the book Schaum's Outline Chinese Grammar very good because the explanations are good and its vocab doesn't  get too technical.

 

I also think that however boring it may seem you may just have to start again, that is what I have done. I have spent 25 years "learning" Chinese, I have taken evening classes at our local university, private group lessons, but mostly self study. I knew quite a few characetrs, and quite a lot of phrases, I understood quite a lot, but I was rubbish at constructing my own sentences.

 

So I have started again, right back to lesson one, with the New Practical Chinese Reader (NPCR), and I am making sure I really understand each lesson before moving on to the next one. I am using Pleco flashcards https://www.pleco.com/, the audio that comes with NPCR, watch the videos on YouTube, using Hanzi Grids  http://www.hanzigrids.com/   to practice writing.

 

I also found TPRS very good for learning and practicing speech. Here is link to a thread about it http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46693-any-experience-with-tprs/

 

I found it absolutely brilliant, my confidence levels went right up, I only had a few taster sessions with Eszter, I thoroughly enjoyed it and would really like to do some more when I have some more time.

 

If you can get some guidance either by taking classes or something online etc for the first year or so I think this would be a big help.

 

You are just going to have to hit the books and really study to make it stick.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Silent]

reading this thread I'm suddenly feeling less bad about my level after learning on and off for about 4 or 5 years:-)

 

 

I feel like I missed some important aspects of the language early on, but to go back to the very beginning would be pretty depressing for me I think. So my point is what should I do? I love structure so if someone could tell me of how they got through certain barriers of their language learning, or how to develop a study plan I would be most grateful.

I recognize the feeling, beginners books are too easy but a higher level is too hard because it refers to fundamentals you don't have. You say you understand about 500 characters. I assume you mean reading or is this your vocabulary for oral use too?

 

I think the advice given start over and do it well is a good one, but I also know it's a hard one when it comes to discipline. A private teacher may help in this as he can assess your level and create customised lessons for you in order to target your specific weaknesses. For your situation probably far better then a standard course where 0 knowledge is assumed and you'll spend time 'waiting' for other students to catch up with what you already know.

 

If your spoken/listening skills are a bit better then the 500 characters you mention you might also choose to push forward and start watching/study movies, soaps etc. Far more interesting then a lesson from a textbook, but still it requires discipline and after watching the same movie several times it still may become boring.  If you do consume native material consistently you should get a feel of the structure and grammar automatically just like you learned your native tongue without grammar books. This approach however still needs you to be disciplined and to create your own structure. Obviously it won't hurt if you read a grammar book along side the movies.

 

Personally I went the way of a private teacher. It does help me maintaining discipline (though it could be much better) and it creates some structure. I still feel progress is slow nevertheless sometimes I amaze myself about what I'm capable of. When I started with my teacher half a year ago I could read somewhat but not much else. Recently however I amazed myself a couple of times. E.g. in februari while traveling in India I kept something of a diary in Chinese with far less effort then expected and most of it was understandable for my teacher and last lesson when we were talking about the weather I amazed myself to give my teacher a mini lecture about how hail is formed. All far from perfect chinese and with skipping details and nuances but, at least to my teacher quite understandable. Misunderstandings seem to originate just as much in differences in logic and viewpoint as from my poor language skills.

[Bad Cao Cao]

So my point is what should I do?

 

For me, personally, when I hit this question (after about a year of banging my head against the Mandarin brick wall), I re-formulated it like this ->

 

Who is someone I can relate to, that has reached a *really* high level, *and* has similar circumstances to me, and what the heck did they do?

 

So I listed out a bunch of potential candidates, including: Jonathon Kos Read, Julien Gaudfroy, Mark Rowswell , John Pasden, Steve Kaufmann. 

 

Note, these were my top 5 candidates- you may not relate to any of these.

 

I then chose the one whose life story matched my circumstances best, then I emailed them, and asked them, honestly - what should I do?  

 

Then never looked back.

[Demonic_Duck]

If you don't like learning grammar in a formal way, your best bet is just practice, practice, practice. That means practicing conversation, but also practicing the other skills. When you're practicing reading and writing, take note of how the author or speaker expresses their thoughts, then practice expressing yourself in the same or similar ways. Take note of how things are constructed at various levels - characters, words, phrases, clauses, sentences. Doesn't matter if your notion of what these concepts mean is hazy - just make sure you're taking note of that structure. Think to yourself, "what would happen if I switched out this word/phrase for another one?" Then try using it yourself, and get feedback from native speakers (it may be best to try this first in written form, then once you've got feedback on it, try drilling it out loud).

 

Formally learning grammar can be a shortcut to understanding how to express certain things, but it's not the only way.

 

I then chose the one whose life story matched my circumstances best, then I emailed them, and asked them, honestly - what should I do?

...and what advice did they give?

[roddy]

"to go back to the very beginning would be pretty depressing for me"

 

It is depressing, but avoiding it now and having to do it in five years will be even more depressing.

[gingaginger]

Wow guys thanks so much for the feedback, I knew it was a good community here!

 

Ok so to answer everything..

 

Traunk, thanks for the advice, its great to see that you have been able to make real progress after all those years.  I don't really have enough time to do any full time classes, although today I did email a skype tutor today as I think that fits my circumstances best.  Great Experience!

 

Makochan, I would like to improve my grammar really, apart from basic structures I don't really know that much!  That book looks good, I already have Mondern Mandarin Chinese Grammar A Practical Guide, I have done limited study with this book, so if anyone could tell me if it is worth continuing with it... Cheers!

 

Shelley it has been pretty much all self study, once had a teacher who just made us sing, learnt nothing!  Thanks a lot for all your suggestions, I will definitely look into them! Thanks a lot!

 

Silent, I literally just read up about watching movies, I had tried before with Chinese subtitles, was quite a good test of my character knowledge but didn't really work out.  Then I read up about really dissecting the movie and studying sentence by sentence, actually really appeals to me, any movie recommendations? Thank you!

 

Bad cao cao, I have heard of Steve Kaufmann and watch a lot of his videos, he has a lot of ideas that I agree with, never thought about emailing him though.  Thanks!

 

Demonic_Duck, would you recommend taking a note by literally taking a note of these things? It is great advice actually by just trying stuff out, you never forget those moments.  Thank you!

 

Roddy, I knew that really that it would be more depressing, it is a very good point! Thanks a lot!

 

Think that's everything... haha, this has got me very motivated!

[Angelina]

If you don't like learning grammar in a formal way, your best bet is just practice, practice, practice.

 

The problem with Chinese is that even if you would like to learn grammar in a formal way, you probably won't be taught grammar properly. It's mostly some exercises, memorization, and developing some vague concept called 语感. In other words, if you love grammar and you start learning Chinese, you will hate your Chinese classes. 

 

I do agree with the suggestion. Talk to people, make sure you are exposed to as much Chinese as possible.

 

Then try using it yourself, and get feedback from native speakers

 

 

The best approach is to keep asking Chinese people if what you say sounds acceptable. Chinese people are not being taught enough grammar, the result is that many of them do not know how to explain certain things. However, despite not knowing how to explain the rules, they do know what the rules are. 

[Demonic_Duck]

Demonic_Duck, would you recommend taking a note by literally taking a note of these things? It is great advice actually by just trying stuff out, you never forget those moments. Thank you!

I meant it in the broad sense that includes taking mental notes, writing it down in a notebook, adding one or more flashcards to your app of choice etc., whichever works best for you and is appropriate for the situation. If you're digesting a decent-sized amount of material at once, you probably won't want to write down every single new sentence structure or way of phrasing something, but simply consciously noting how the sentences are formed can still be useful for those that don't warrant taking physical notes.

[Shelley]

I already have Mondern Mandarin Chinese Grammar A Practical Guide, I have done limited study with this book, so if anyone could tell me if it is worth continuing with it...

 

I have this book too, it is pretty heavy on the technical aspects of grammar. I found that Schaum's was less technical.

They are written by the same author/s.

 

I did a little review of the 2 books here http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46180-intermediate-chinese-grammar-%E4%B8%AD%E7%BA%A7%E6%B1%89%E8%AF%AD%E8%AF%AD%E6%B3%95/page-5 , post #84

 

If you are getting on with MMCG then continue using it , but if the terminology is getting you down, try  Schaum's.

 

There is a workbook for MMCG and Schaums has the exercises included in the lessons, works better in my opinion and there are answer keys for both.

 

 

[Angelina]

I'm not a huge fan of both books, but I am probably biased so don't listen to me. 

[gingaginger]

Great stuff thanks guys, I think I have enough to work with. Very excited about starting now.

[Silent]

 

Silent, I literally just read up about watching movies, I had tried before with Chinese subtitles, was quite a good test of my character knowledge but didn't really work out.  Then I read up about really dissecting the movie and studying sentence by sentence, actually really appeals to me, any movie recommendations? Thank you!

I think you should choose something you like. Some movies and soap episodes I've watched a dozen times or so with various degrees of intensity so if you can find something you can appreciate it's a big pro, but I guess it might be equally valid to take a different one every time. In some respects that may even be better as it provides exposure to more different accents and a wider variety of vocabulary and grammar. Personally I've a couple of soap series and a few movies I tend to get back to every once in a while. In between I watch other Chinese movies or just put them on in the background. For some recommendations you can look here and here There are also some commercial products that come with a textbook.

 

Ideally you should get something with Chinese and English (soft) subtitles. That way you can choose to watch it without subtitles, English subtitles to watch it in a relaxed mode or Chinese subtitles. The chinese subtitles (if srt format) are also very convenient for analyzing and deciding what vocabulary to learn.

[Lu]

Very excited about starting now.

Don't just start though. Starting is exciting, but the trick is to keep at it, week after week after week, even when progress is slow, even when you're busy with other things or the weather is nice or it's Christmas. And if you find yourself slacking, start again, and again, and again.

 

Good luck!

[Qiaonansen]

Ben, I think you would benefit from using the circling method. This is talked about in TPRS. I use this method quite a bit when I was teaching English in China, and I also used it on myself for improving my fluency in Chinese.

 

Basically, you take a sentence and then ask and answer every question that you can about it. For example:

 

毛泽东每天晚上在宾馆里睡觉八个小时。

 

Ideally this would come from a textbook and you would have the audio clip for it. Listen to the audio clip over and over repeating out loud until you can say the sentence fluently and accurately.

 

The next step is to create questions based on the sentence, for example：

 

谁每天晚上在宾馆里睡觉八个小时？

毛泽东什么时候在宾馆里睡觉八个小时？

毛泽东每天晚上在哪儿睡觉八个小时？

毛泽东每天晚上在宾馆里做什么？

毛泽东每天晚上在宾馆里睡觉几个小时？

 

The questions above are using who, what, where, when, how much, etc. Now, you can make some fun ones, such as：

 

（Note, these are yes/no questions）

 

obama每天晚上在宾馆里睡觉八个小时吗？

毛泽东每星期六在宾馆里睡觉八个小时吗？

 

Then, you ask yourself the questions and answer them in full sentences, in the following way:

 

obama每天晚上在宾馆里睡觉八个小时吗？

不。obama不每天晚上在宾馆里睡觉八个小时吗。 obama每天晚上在宾馆里睡觉八个小时。

 

Once you have created as many questions as you can and their answers, start asking and answering the questions out loud. This is a fantastic exercise for developing oral fluency in building your confidence.

 

If you can find a study partner to do this with it can go a lot easier and even be quite funny and enjoyable.

 

Anyway, I don't think it would feel like going back to the beginning if you are to take the 500 characters and vocabularies that you have learned and drill yourself in this way. Then, once you build up some fluency, that is once your speaking catches up with your reading, then you can start learning new material again.

 

Good luck!

[roddy]

@gingaginger, how are you getting on?