下起雨来了 problem

[Zeppa]

In class, we were going over an HSK3 exercise. This is number 1 in the standard practice book, sentence 74. I had the book at home so I knew the solution and I knew I could never have guessed it. You are supposed to make the following words into a sentence:

 

突然 下 天 起 雨 了 来

 

This is the correct answer:

天突然下起雨来了

 

I am not sure exactly what this structure is. I would expect:

雨下起来了

although that obviously doesn't work with 天 at the beginning.

 

I asked the teacher to explain, and she said 天 means 'it' as in 'it is raining', 下 is a transitive verb and 雨 is the object. I don't really believe any of this. I thought 雨 was a subject, but the teacher said 天 is the subject.

 

She also put up a transparency with examples headed SP4 Extended use of directional complements.

 

I think I have this pattern in my head now, but it makes me uncomfortable that the explanation was so weird.

 

Any comments, or references to grammar books, of which I have a few? I can find some stuff in the book Yufa! around page 126-7. But I suspect that this structure is just a bit too advanced for HSK3. Of course, one would still pass the exam, but I would like an explanation that helps me get the structure into my hed.

[stapler]

I'll give it a shot. Though take what I say with a grain of salt as I too am just a beginner. I think the "structure" is just a normal Chinese sentence. Maybe the Verb-Object compound is confusing you.

 

There is a subject (天), a verb-object (下雨）an adverb (突然), a directional complement （來） and the aspect particle 了. 

 

So if we stick to the standard Subject-Verb-Object order we would want to write something like 天下雨. This is incomplete though. So add in the adverb 天突然下雨. Then add in the 了 to show it wasn't raining before 天突然下雨了, then the complement 天突然下起雨來了.

 

If there wasn't this Verb-Object compound 下雨 it's clearer. Say for example we just have a standalone verb 走, object 公園, and subject 他 we would write 他跑公園. Then we can add an adverb 漸漸 so we have 他漸漸走公園。Then we should add a directional complement 他漸漸走到公園去 then the 了so we have 他漸漸走到公園去了。

 

There are lots of Verb Object compounds (聊天, 吃飯, etc). They're a bit strange in that they have their own rules. But at the basic level you can almost treat them as a separate verb (EG 吃) and a separate object (EG 飯) that always appear together. In this particular case the verb 下 always comes with the object 雨 to expressing raining.

[arreke]

I am not sure exactly what this structure is. I would expect:

雨下起来了

What do you usually say when it starts raining, 下雨了 or 雨下了 ？

[Zeppa]

Arreke: I don't understand what you mean. But please ignore my expectation - I may well be wrong, but I still don't understand the correct structure.

 

Stapler: thanks. First of all, as I said, I did not realize that 下雨 is a verb plus object. I understood it to mean 'rain falls'. I could not confirm this grammatical usage in any of my dictionaries yesterday, but if it is so, that helps.

 

Secondly, I had never consciusly encountered 天下雨, just下雨.

 

But thirdly, my problem is with the bit in asterisks: 天突然*下起雨*来了, in particular where the 雨 goes.  I can tell from Googling that it's a normal structure. I probably need to find some similar structures to drill it into my brain. I don't think you've explained the bit I have problems with.

[Zeppa]

I also don't understand why 下雨 is a verb-object compound. I just see it as two separate words - I gather I am to see it as a verb and object, but even in the test the two words are separated. It isn't a structure like 跳舞, for instance.

[stapler]

If you don't have a dictionary that can distinguish VO's from normal V's then I recommend you go get a copy of the Chinese ABC Dictionary. It's in printed form and you can also buy it on Pleco.

 

As for 起, it indicates an action starting. It shouldn't be separated from the 來. See this:

http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Further_uses_of_resultative_complement_%22qilai%22#Expressing_initiation_of_an_action

 

跳舞 is a plain old verb (I think - though I have seen Chinese people use it as a VO). There's no way to identity what is a V and what is a VO by looking at the word in isolation. You can only tell by looking at a good dictionary or by the way it's used.

[Angelina]

I probably need to find some similar structures to drill it into my brain.

 

唱起歌来。I always use this one. 

 

Any comments, or references to grammar books, of which I have a few? I can find some stuff in the book Yufa! around page 126-7. But I suspect that this structure is just a bit too advanced for HSK3. Of course, one would still pass the exam, but I would like an explanation that helps me get the structure into my hed

 

 

 It's difficult to find good books. I am doing some research on verbal aspect, it has been tough. 

 

She also put up a transparency with examples headed SP4 Extended use of directional complements.

 

Yes, aspect has been influenced by space. I haven't managed to prove this yet.

 

Anyway, you should see 下起雨来了 as 下雨 plus the inchoative aspect marker 起来 plus the mood marker 了。 起 always has to follow the verb 下。The object can never be put between them.

 

下雨 does not have a subject. Even in English, "it is raining", there is a 'dummy' subject ‘it’. I have never heard about 天下雨. I have a lecture now. Try the search function on this forum, there are some other posts on it. 

 

 

雨下起来了

 

It is grammatically correct, but you can't use it in this case because it is a marked form where the focus is on 雨 (what is raining) instead of the action itself. Don't use this structure unless you want to stress what is raining. 

[arreke]

 

I probably need to find some similar structures to drill it into my brain.

 

唱起歌来。I always use this one.

 

想起……来 is also quite common, not sure if it's the same grammar though.

Take a look at the following example, hope it'll help ))

 

[Zeppa]

Ah, thanks, I do have the ABC on Pleco and I see that this is a structure like 吃饭. thanks. I didn't know that!

 

"As for 起, it indicates an action starting. It shouldn't be separated from the 來."

 

But it *is* separated here, isn't it?

 

I see that 跳舞 is different, but it is a compound, not just a simple verb.

 

Thanks for the other example, Angelina. Yes, exactly, 'it' is a dummy subject and not useful to compare with Chinese usage.

 

I think it is probably enough for me to  understand that something can come between 下起 and 来. The use of 天 at the beginning of the sentence, if unfamiliar to you, just supports my feeling that the structure is inappropriate for HSK3, which after all is a fairly rudimentary qualification!

 

I am not worried about aspect at the moment - it is the word order with the directional complement that is the problem.

 

Many thanks to all for reading.

[Frederik451]

the "new practical chinese reader" book 3 chapter 36 is about this structure. there are a few examples in the grammar explanation part of the chapter:

 

以前我喜欢现代诗，现在我也喜欢起古诗来了

 

切蛋糕的时候，大家都唱起“祝你生热快乐”来了

[stapler]

 

 

But it *is* separated here, isn't it?"

What I mean is that in this usage, 起 and 來 have to be used together. When it's used on VO it's split up, but still used together.

 

So with a plain verb 跑起來, or 笑起來, 收拾起來 (V 起來）. With a plain adjective it's also the same eg 熱起來 or 漂亮起來 （ADJ 起來） . But when you're using a VO you have to split the 起來 over the verb and object - 跳起舞來， 下起雨來， 幫起忙來 (V 起 O 來)

[Angelina]

I am not worried about aspect at the moment - it is the word order with the directional complement that is the problem.

It is aspect you are worried about. In the sentence 天突然下起雨来了, 起来 is an aspect marker, it is not a directional complement. Obviously the original spatial meaning has a new, figurative, grammatical meaning. This is very important for Mandarin and should be taught to people taking the HSK 3. The problem is the methodology they are using, not the material.

Even in my native language (where almost every verb has to be marked for aspect) we use 'above'+ V to say how the action has been completed, and then we use 'next to' + V to say what is meant by V + 下去 in Mandarin (you were doing something, you took a break, you went back to doing it, and then you completed it).

[Tiana]

想起……来 is also quite common, not sure if it's the same grammar though.

 

想起(...)来 is used in the primary sense (directional complement) and "下起(...)来" is in the extended sense ( = temporal), so the grammar may be different in some particular cases (The object placement is less restricted in 想起(...)来). 

[Zeppa]

Angelina, I can see what you mean by aspect. I saw or see the expression as a directional complement used in a figurative sense and I have no problem with that. My problem is with the word order of 雨. Nor do I have a problem understanding that 起 and 来 'go together'. I understand the whole sentence as 'it is starting to rain'. I would be interested to know what your native language is, by the way. I do not know what 'SP4' on the teacher's materials means, but maybe someone knows.

Tiana says the object placement is less restricted in some senses, and that may be why I haven't encountered it yet.

 

How can you say the sentence is appropriate for HSK3 when you say you haven't encountered this use of 天 yourself?

 

Btw this is not an HSK3 class, so I don't know what you mean by 'The problem is the methodology they are using' - I have only this book of practice tests to go on. The single test is being used as extra material to encourage us to do the exam, but I don't intend to do it. The problem I have is that I am a re-beginner and in the last three years I've had five teachers and four books, because it is hard to get a group intermediate class running. The current class is using the book Conversational Chinese 301, which is not my favourite. Previously I've used Chinese in Steps 3 and 4 and A Trip to China. I would possibly like to have used NPCR but I don't think that is the way to make up for my terminology deficit. In the 1970s (de Francis) we never talked about grammar!

 

stapler: "So with a plain verb 跑起來, or 笑起來, 收拾起來 (V 起來）. With a plain adjective it's also the same eg 熱起來 or 漂亮起來 （ADJ 起來） . But when you're using a VO you have to split the 起來 over the verb and object - 跳起舞來， 下起雨來， 幫起忙來 (V 起 O 來)"

 

It's going to be 跳舞起来, I think, and I'm not sure you can use 帮忙 without an object.

[Tiana]

It's going to be 跳舞起来, I think, and I'm not sure you can use 帮忙 without an object.

 

It should be 跳起舞来.

Also, in 帮忙, 忙 is the object： 帮我一个忙吧！（Please do me a favour!）

[Zeppa]

Oh dear - wrong again!

 

And how do you know this, that is, where can I find it set out in a grammar book, I don't mean necessarily a textbook?

[Tiana]

The two things you touched in this threads are actually very difficult things to get a good hold of.

 

-You get to know that words like 跳舞, 帮忙 is [V+Obj] normally when you've got to a fairly advanced stage, even if you may have already seen it mentioned in books here and there.

-Again, complex complements (= compound complements, such as 起來) don't usually come with an object; and even when the object is present, it sometimes splits the complex complement and sometimes simply follows it. This is therefore a fairly advanced topic to master, so don't lose heart.

 

What I would advise is trying to remember what you've come across and learn it by gradual exposure and accumulation. One or two rules can't really cover the picture and I doubt that any grammar book would be able to deals with these two topics exhaustively.

[Zeppa]

Thanks, Tiana. You're right, of course, and I do learn by seeing patterns and absorbing them without worrying too much about the grammat. I just like to be able to put my finger on a particular point in reference books when it hits me, but that is difficult enough in English and German, let alone Chinese.

 

"Again, complex complements (= compound complements, such as 起來) don't usually come with an object; and even when the object is present, it sometimes splits the complex complement and sometimes simply follows it."

 

This explains the problem very well. Thanks for that.

 

I'm not losing heart, but I'm frustrated with the current class.

[Angelina]

Again, complex complements (= compound complements, such as 起來) don't usually come with an object; and even when the object is present, it sometimes splits the complex complement and sometimes simply follows it. 

 

Not exactly, what you call complement is just an aspect marker in this case. Therefore, the question is how to attach this marker to a verb with an object. 

 

There are two options 

 

1. 下起雨来了。

 

2. 雨下起来了。

 

The second option is marked, and should only be used when you want to emphasise what is raining. I can't think of a better example, let's say you want to say something like 

 

 

It's raining men. 

 

 

In this case, we can say 

 

天突然帅哥下起来了。 

 

 

Unless you want an emphasis of this kind, the canonical pattern is：

 

verb + 起 ＋ object + 来

 

The example I usually use is 唱起歌来. 

 

How can you say the sentence is appropriate for HSK3 when you say you haven't encountered this use of 天 yourself?

 

I have encountered 天, I just don't think it is the subject. It's more like a location. 

 

 

 

Syntactically, qǐlái and qǐqù do not have the same status; qǐlái can be a verb compound when indicating a direction in space, or it can be reanalyzed as a dissyllabic directional suffix when indicating an aspect of process (inchoative or durative), while qǐqù remains a verb compound in most cases and its spatial meaning is always salient (see Wáng Cànlóng: 2004: 35). In other words, qǐlái is more grammaticalized as a disyllabic suffix, while qǐqù mainly remains a verb phrase or verb compound and occasionally behaves as a dissyllabic suffix when the verb has the [+abstract] feature. Apparently, qǐqù died before its grammaticalization process was finished. In other combinations such as shànglai/shàngqu ‘go up’, xiàlai/xiàqu ‘go down’, jìnlai/jìnqu ‘enter’ and chūlai/chūqu ‘go out’, lái and qù are syntac- tically symmetrical. They are satellites in these verb compounds when the Figure is a patient or form disyllabic suffixes when used after another verb. The meaning of the verb qǐ ‘to get up’ causes the asymmetry between qǐlái and qǐqù. In other words, the semantic properties of qǐ did not favor the grammaticalization of the motion verb qù in their combination. 

...

As has been seen, *起去 qǐqù is out of use in today’s Mandarin, though it is found in 18th–19th century literature10 and especially in the novels of Lao She (1899– 1966) who was famous for his vernacular and representative style of dialect in Beijing. This fact suggests that forty years ago, V+qǐlái and V+qǐqù were symmetrical in Mandarin, but new generations no longer recognize the expression qǐqù. In principle, lái and qù should be symmetrical in those combinations; the asymmetric behavior of *qǐqù is thus out of the ordinary.

Take some sentences drawn from Lao She’s works as examples. It is easy to see that in combinations of “V+qǐqù”, the possibilities for the main verb are quite restricted, with verbs like 藏 cáng ‘to hide’, 收 shōu ‘to take in, to put away’, 卷 juǎn ‘to roll up’, 飛 fēi ‘to fly’. It is interesting to note that these verbs precede qǐlái as well as qǐqù. Compare some pairs of examples in Lao She: 

...

The verbs which can combine with qǐqù are limited. The fact that the com- bination “V+qǐqù” was seen less than “V+qǐlái ” in the period before its extinction shows that perhaps “V+qǐqù” was losing territory. At least the limited choice of the main verb did not favor its development. Since qǐlái was able to take the function of qǐqù, it may be supposed that lái and qù had merged because they no longer indicated direction in the cases “V+qǐlái/qù”11. This reinterpretation had to be realized by new generations who did not make a distinction between lái and qù in these two structures. This means that the merger of lái and qù indicates the aspect of an action rather than the direction of an action. 

ASYMMETRY IN THE EXPRESSION OF SPACE IN CHINESE ––––THE CHINESE LANGUAGE MEETS TYPOLOGY.pdf

[Tiana]

Not exactly, what you call complement is just an aspect marker in this case. Therefore, the question is how to attach this marker to a verb with an object. 

 

You may like to see my post  #13 for this, but if you have done it, then fine.