下起雨来了 problem

[Angelina]

The point I am trying to make is that 起来 when used as an aspect marker should not be called a directional complement. Yes, you said that the grammar may be different in #13, I just think that the terminology should be more precise in order to avoid confusion. 

 

Maybe after the aspect marker 起去 disappeared from Mandarin and 起来 has the meaning of both 起来 and 起去, 来 is not that important and might even become obsolete one day. 

[Angelina]

Any other ideas? Especially from those who disagree with me. 

[Tiana]

Since there're no replies, I assume no one would dare to disagree with you (?  )

 

Anyway, in asking you to look at my post #13, I believed that you would see that my view is closer to yours than you'd think, but you seem to have missed it again by saying in your last post:

 

"The point I am trying to make is that 起来 when used as an aspect marker should not be called a directional complement." 

 

Here is what I said in post #13, which I asked you to look at:

想起(...)来 is used in the primary sense (directional complement) and "下起(...)来" is in the extended sense ( = temporal)

 

Can you see my distinction between the two uses of 起来, and that the extended, temporal use I referred to is what you call "aspect marker"? And also, I did not call it "directional complement", did I? 

 

Just so that you understand when people agree with you, please do not take this as a disagreement. 

[Angelina]

Sure. I just think that the distinction should be made clear because once a directional complement has been grammaticalized into something else it becomes something else and functions in its own way, independently of the original use.

[Tiana]

It's good that we've come to some understanding .

 

By the way, since i don't like to contradict people, I didn't commend on what you said about 天 in 天下雨:

I have encountered 天, I just don't think it is the subject. It's more like a location. 

 

But on second thought and for the benefit of the poster who asked about it as well as those who would like to know, I'd say that 天 is in fact the grammatical subject in that sentence, and such a subject is indeed very common in sentences about natural phenomena:

 

天黑了

天亮了

天刮风

天下雨

天下雪

etc...

[arreke]

想起(...)来 is used in the primary sense (directional complement) and "下起(...)来" is in the extended sense ( = temporal), so the grammar may be different in some particular cases (The object placement is less restricted in 想起(...)来). 

As long as I understand, 想家 and 下雨 both are Verb + Object

So, 我想起家来了 and 天下起雨来了,  isn't it the same grammatical structure ?

 

Well it's just my assumption and I admit it might be wrong, but in case it's correct, 想起(...)来 is easier to understand, since it's quite common expression, compare to 下起雨来

for instance:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOgt7JVi_AU

[Angelina]

But is it a real subject? 下起雨来了 is perfectly fine too.

[Tiana]

As long as I understand, 想家 and 下雨 both are Verb + Object

So, 我想起家来了 and 天下起雨来了,  isn't it the same grammatical structure ?

 

 

 

Arreke, the second half of my sentence which you quoted should answer your question: "so the grammar may be different in some particular cases (The object placement is less restricted in 想起(...)来). "

 

That is to say, the grammar is different in some cases, where the placement of the object is less restrictive in 想起(...)来): 

 

我想起来一切。

他便想起来自己并不是最高主宰

想起他来

In contrast to the above, there seems to be only one position for the object in 下起雨来.

[arreke]

Thank you, Tiana, for the detailed explanation, now I'm almost clear with this tricky grammar eventually ))

[Zeppa]

Thanks very much to all, it's very helpful. I do know that words may be verbs in Chinese although they seem like adjectives to an English speaker, but I don't think about it often enough.

Angelina's (I see what your native language is now) article link is too advanced for me, but I see there is a Kindle book by Dan Xu, Introduction to Chinese Syntax, that is more basic.

[benkjo]

For Example:

 

天突然下起雨来了

 

the weather was raining suddenly.

 

it is 天

 

 

雨下起来了

 

the rain was coming down

[Enoxus]

This is a good topic! 

 

在语法学中，中文是话题优先（显著）语言，即中文强调表达语义。有些句子的表达不强调主语。

In Syntax study, Chinese is a Topic-prominent language, which means Chinese emphasizes the expression of semantics. Some sentences do not emphasize Subject.

 

如：

吃饭了！

该走了！

到点了！

下雨了！

打雷了！

出事了！

 

 

中文的动词中，有一些特殊的趋向动词，这些动词有单音节词和双音节词两种。趋向动词与趋向补语是两个内容较多的话题，最好请你们的老师予以详细的讲解。

There are some special Directional Verbs among Chinese verbs, and there are two types of them: Monosyllabic Verbs and Disyllabic Verbs. Directional Verbs and Directional complements are two topics with rich meanings, it's better to ask your teacher(s) to address more detailed explanation about them.

 

趋向动词Directional Verbs:

 

　　上　　下　　进　　出　　回　　过　　起

来　上来　下来　进来　出来　回来　过来　起来

去　上去　下去　进去　出去　回去　过去