Translating a poem ..

[chinesekitten]

Hey

I've got a little problem. I have to translate a classical poem into English. Unfortunately I've just been learning Chinese for 8 months and I have absolutely no idea about Classical Chinese vocabulary or grammar. That's why I've got some problems with my poem and it would be incredibly nice if anyboddy could help me. Thanks!

 

自古皆有沒，zì gǔ ( since ancient time) jiē (everybody) yǒu (has) méi (not) --> okay i get that probably 有沒 means the same as 沒有, but what would that mean? "Since ancient times everbody hasn't" - that doesn't really make sense to me...

 

萬歲如平常。wàn suì (10000 years) rú (like) píng cháng (ordinary)  --> could 如 also mean "seem" ? that would make sense..

 

員丘足我糧。yuán (person) qiū (hill) jù/zú (enough) wǒ (I/me) liáng (food) --> the hill provides the food I'd say but what to do with "員"? and is 足 in this case pronounced as jù or zú?

 

方與三辰游，fāng (just) yú (particle) sān (three) chén yóu (walking around) --> in the translation i read 與三 were "The Three Lumieres" but i don't get why or how i should come to that, since i only found 與 as some kind of a particle

 

壽考豈渠央。shòu kǎo (long life) kǎi (indicates a rethoric question) qú (trench??) yāng (ends) ... okay I've got absolutely no clue about that one... 

 

Here's the whole poem in simplified characters case you need it:

                                                                                                                                 自古皆有没，何人得灵长？

不死复不老，万岁如平常。
赤泉给我饮，员丘足我粮。
方与三辰游，寿考岂渠央

 

 

[Basil]

I just had a quick stab:

 

Has there ever been one who lived as a divine?

Neither death nor senility, an eternity as now.

Springs which I do imbibe, hillocks on which to dine.

In which direction does longevity lie?

 

Purely for reference. I am sure many others can do much much better than I...

[chinesekitten]

@Basil 

 

We have to translate it word by word and as exact as possible. We aren't supposed to form such nice sentences as you did and I also I'd really appreciate answers to my questions. 

But thank you anyway!

[Basil]

Since antiquity has there ever been such a person who lived long?

Not dying yet not ageing, (living for) ten thousand years as if normal.

With springs for me to drink, everywhere hillocks enough for sustenance .

I just travelled with the sun, moon and stars, for how far will my lifespan flow?

 

 

The  Internet explains the final sentence as follows:

 

方与三辰游，寿考岂渠央

 

我刚刚和天地日月星一同遨游，寿命岂 会匆遽完结

 

 

re 员，the first entry in my dictionary has 周， 四周。 

[Demonic_Duck]

Assuming this is a homework assignment you've been given, what the heck is your teacher doing giving you assignments to translate Classical Chinese poetry if they've never taught you any Classical Chinese?

 

A note about the first line:

 

“没” is [mò], not [méi], with the meaning here being "death". As far as I seem to remember, the word 没 [méi] is a fairly recent invention.

[Basil]

That makes sense, and invalidates both my attempts.

 

Good spot.

[Basil]

Ok try this:

 

自古皆有没，何人得灵长？

不死复不老，万岁如平常。

赤泉给我饮，员丘足我粮。

方与三辰游，寿考岂渠央

 

Since antiquity, death our constant onus

Was there ever an unmarred Tithonus?

Neither quietus nor senescence;

Just aurora, eternal juvenescence.

Springs give the water of life, 

Everywhere, hillocks fruit for one’s knife.

Yet a glance at stellar bodies warns me,

That maybe, life is brief, pure vanity?

[chinesekitten]

@Demonic_Duck: thanks that was really helpful! And to why my teacher gave this assignment to us: there are students in this course which already have Classical Chinese, but they are in their 4th or 5th semester and I'm in my 2nd so that's why it is hard for me :/

[889]

What gain the child whose scholarly tasks are by others done?

[chinesekitten]

@889 I really try doing it by myself it's just hard if you are a stranger to classical chinese.. but I'm really trying my best - believe me (otherwise i would just have posted the whole poem and said i need a translation... but I asked questions and I would appreciate answers to them)

[Enoxus]

Hi there! Glad to know you've been learning Chinese for some time!

I've asked if any our members could help translate the poem, and here is one: 

 

Reading <The Sea & Mountain Bible>

 

Death is eternal from eons,

Nobody can live forever.

Only the Nature is outside of these forces,

Ten-thousand years are winking courses.  

 

Drinking water from Red-spring,

Fetching food from Round-hill.

Just visiting the Sun, the Moon and other stars,

Longevity is surely beyond ours.

 

( Translated by 慧奇 )

[陳德聰]

Question 1: 沒 means death

Question 2: 如 means "as" or "like" just as you said. At best it could be "seems like" but it really is just the "like" and not the "seems"

Question 3: 員 here means 圓 "round" and I would assume you should pronounce 足 as zú

Question 4: you misunderstood probably. 三辰 is the "three lumieres" you're talking about. 與 is "with"

The last question I have no clue.

[chinesekitten]

@陳德聰

Thanks a lot!! that was really helpful!

[chinesekitten]

This is a poem I have to read and translate, but I'm not sure about some pinyin. I found two meanings and/or pronounciations for some characters, but I don't really know which one to use. You don't have to translate the poem to me, just tell me (if you know) which pinyin + meaning for the bold characters are the right ones. 

 

自古皆有没，何人得灵长？
不死复不老，万岁如平常。
赤泉给 gěi/jǐ (give,grant/ provide) 我饮，员丘足 jù/zú (enough/enoug, foot)我粮。

方与三辰游，寿考岂kǎi/qǐ (triumphing/particle used for a rhetorical question) 渠qú/jù (canal, ditch/could it be that?) 央.

 

Probably someone could also give me a word for word translation of the last 4 characters, since with me the don't make any sense. (Something like: Could it be that long life ends? - I mean that doesn't really make sense to me..)

 

THANKS FOR ANY HELP!!!

[imron]

Merged.

 

You're more likely to get help if you keep everything in the one place.

[Enoxus]

Hello chinesekitten, 

I was surprised when I read your thread because you said you'd just been learning Chinese for 8 months. What you are studying now is definitely not for common beginners so I assume you've just been learning Classical Chinese for 8 months instead of starting learning Chinese from scratch. And that is pretty impressive!

 

------------

 

@Basil was quite right. Translating a piece of Classical Chinese poem, especially the classical Chinese poems from the era before Tang Dynasty not only can be very difficult, but also you will need to be professional in both languages study, and be professional in literature as well. It's not a simple translation, it's a recreation of literature. I wouldn't say you could or should to this by now, but I think it will be okay to ask yourself if you could comprehend the original poem. If you do, you can try to translate it into modern Chinese first and ask others if you did it well. Then try to translate it into English or any other languages.

 

As a type of art, not every native Chinese speaker can possibly understand every single classical Chinese poem, sometimes not even close. The original composer of the poem was  陶渊明, his works had tons of effects to poetry creation works of the entire Tang Dynasty, he was one of the great Masters of classical Chinese literature in history. We ( everyone here) would like to help you in translating classical Chinese poems into English, but what I concern is, if you could benefit and gain anything useful from it. Of course, if you are positive that you are not only interested in classical Chinese poems, but also you can gain pretty much in translating them into English, I recommend you translate some of them into modern Chinese first (no need to be poems), and then, at least I'll do my best to help you in English translating. I believer everyone here will be glad if you can improve your Chinese this way, and be very proud of you.

 

Wish you all the best!

.

[Lu]

While I think Chinesekitten should indeed go talk with her teacher, I think everyone here is being a bit too harsh. CK is, for whatever reason that we don't know, in a class that is above her level. Instead of being disheartened when she gets an assignment that is actually too difficult, she makes a serious effort to do the assignment (see her first posts) and only then starts looking for help here. This is a forum full of knowledgable people who are usually willing to help, especially if someone shows they already made a real effort. On top of all that, CK is starting a new topic when she thinks that is appropriate, just as Roddy and others have been urging everyone to do. And yet she gets all this pushback.

 

Unfortunately I can't really help with the poem, my usual mode of operation with classical Chinese poetry is to try and look up an existing translation. But to my fellow forumers who can help, just go ahead and do so already instead of telling CK she shouldn't be in this situation.

[陳德聰]

http://www.zdic.net/c/2/d5/207150.htm

岂渠 = 岂遽 = 岂鉅 = 难道

a good ol' rhetorical question

[Enoxus]

I don't want to be a "Mr. Link" so I deleted the link in my previous post. The link was just to point out the translation was not my work and as a reference I felt It was necessary to show its original source. Our site has 2.7 million external backlinks and scored 7 in PR, even our supporting forum site ranked 6, so I have no reason to promote our site anywhere else since it's been used by Chinese Linguists around the world for years.

 

No language can be translated word by word. Translating a Classical Chinese poem into English word by word can be a disaster for a beginner in learning Chinese. It would be quite difficult to translate it into modern Chinese if the translator has no adequate knowledge of both language forms. This type of teaching method is so wrong, it's like asking elementary school students study Algebra. You won't benefit much from this method no matter how much effort you'd throw in. It can be difficult to point out the part of speech of each word in each piece of art like that poem, not to mention other key elements in grammar. If you doubt what I said, ask your teacher to translate some classical poems him/herself. Our site has recorded more than 280 thousands Classical Chinese poems to be picked freely. 

[Angelina]

Can you give us the link again, Mr. Cui?

I agree, not to mention this is not modern Mandarin. It's basically a language the students have never studied before. Except for the characters, it is not that easy for a person who speaks fluent Mandarin to understand an old poem, 系统不同.

Translating any poem verbatim will be a disaster. Poetry translation is an art of its own. Try to translate a 崔健 song into English word for word and you will end up with nonsense. Or you better ask a person who barely speaks English (hello how are you English) to translate a sonnet by Shakespeare word for word into Chinese.

There is nothing wrong with telling your teacher you are questioning her teaching methods. It can help the teacher learn how to be a better teacher and save her future students from going through the ordeal.