了and Nouns in 得 Phrases

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I went through the "Complements of Result and Manner"　chapter in my Basic Chinese (Routledge) grammar book today, and a couple questions came up.

1. 我眼睛花得葚麼都也看不清楚了．　It seemed that in all the examples, either there was no 了, and the English translation was either in past tense or present, or else it included 了 at the end of the 得 phrase as in the above example, with only a past-tense translation. Now, I understand that 了 is NOT a tense marker, but I want to understand where this difference in sense comes from. Knowing whether this sentence is legal would help: 我眼睛花了花得甚麼都也看不清楚． Can the 了 go in that position? What difference would that make to the sense of the　sentence?

2.

a) 他開玩笑開得大家都笑起來了．

B) 哥哥醉得誰也不認識了．

In the first example, 大家　appears to be the subject of the verb 笑起來; however; the English translation given for b is "(My) elder brother was so drunk he couldn't recognize anyone"; 誰, although it sits in exactly the same place in the phrase as 大家 in a, appears to be the object of the verb 認識． Why does this difference exist? I actually initially interpreted B (it comes after A) as "He was so drunk nobody recognized him (i.e. He wasn't acting himself; although, in retrospect, ｔｈｅ　ｓｅｎｓｅ　ｏｆ　認識　may not match "recognize" in that way). Anyway, the point is, in phrases like this, how do I know (other than context) whether that element is playing the role of subject or object?

Thanks for your patience with my inconcise rambling, and thanks for help!

[Altair]

There is in actuality a certain association between 了 and past tense. The problem is that it is only an association. Neither is necessary for the other in many cases. As a result, the best practice is the understand them as separate things.

In the sentences you cite, the issue surrounds the use of sentence-了, not verb-了. These are best thought of as different particles, rather than one particle that can appear in different parts of a sentence. In fact, they can both occur in the same sentence.

The difference between the sentences is probably this. Those without sentence-=了 have a sense of describing a result or impression, but do not necessarily describe the endpoint of a situation or a phase within a situation. Those with 了 describe a "complete" process and signal the listener that the conversation will move on to describe another "scene." The fact of "completion" may also have additional relevance to the converstion. These sentences will have a sense of including an endpoint within their description that completes the mental image trying to be conveyed about the total scene.

Sentence-了 can and does appear in past, present, and future sentences; however, its use with complements of result tends to be restricted to the past or changed conditons, because of the inherent nature of discourse. Consider your example: 他開玩笑開得大家都笑起來了. I understand this as "He joked to the point that everyone began to laugh." This "completely" describes a scene and the end of a progression. Sentence-了 is appropriate. If, however, we say: "He is joking to the point that everyone is beginning to laugh," I think this structure becomes awkward in Chinese. I think in Chinese you have to chose between emphasizing the ongoing aspect of the action or the completeness. You cannot really describe the result or endpoint of an ongoing activity that is not yet complete. Sentence-了 must be omitted.

If we consider "I will tell a joke that will make everyone begin to laugh," we enter th area of prediction. Prediction in Chinese is handled by words like 会 or 將, not by 了.

Now consider 我眼睛花得葚麼都也看不清楚了. I understand this as either "My eyes are so blurry I can't see anything" or "My eyes were so blurry, I couldn't see anything." The present tense works in this case, because the 了 signals that we are talking about a new and limited situation. We have a complete assessment of this phase and can now change perspectives on the scene being described. If this sentence were meant to describe a permanent condition, perhaps as part of an overall description of the person's characteristics, I think the 了 would be omitted.

哥哥醉得誰也不認識了

Anyway, the point is, in phrases like this, how do I know (other than context) whether that element is playing the role of subject or object?

Context is indeed your only guide, but I would suggest that there is actually more to the Chinese grammar than is readily apparent.

In Chinese, topics are much more important than subjects. In understanding Chinese grammar and in understanding utterances it is best to orient around the topics and the things that change them, rather than around subjects. In this case, 哥哥, as the topic, probably has a better claim on being the subject of 認識 than 誰, whose preverbal position is simply forced by the structure.

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Thank you Altair for taking the time to answer so thoroughly. That was a most comprehensive and understandable response. I always love reading your posts because you seem quite knowledgeable and express that knowledge well.