“是…的” structure

[kevjev]

Hi guys! First of all I'm new to this forum, so I apologise if I break any posting rules or what not. Apart from that, I'm having difficulty in learning the “是…的” structure in Chinese. I have used this link http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/%22Shi..._de%22_construction to help me. I know that the word after 是 is emphasized and in the sentence I created, "我觉得你的是帮助非常有用的。” I wanted to emphasise help. Can you please tell me why is this sentence grammatically wrong? My teacher had a hard time explaining to me why. She said the sentence should be written as, “我觉得你的帮助是非常有用的” because there is no need to emphasize help. Thanks in advance!

[etm001]

Hi,

 

As you know, the 是...的 construction is used emphasize time, place, manner, etc. In your example sentence, we want to emphasize that "your help/assistance" (你的幫助) is/was "very useful" (非常有用). To be clear, we want to emphasize not that you helped, but how you helped (i.e., the manner in which you helped). So we can "wrap" that part of the sentence with 是...的 to create the emphasis:

• 我觉得你的帮助是非常有用的。

Hope that helps!

 

P.S. Another reason why your original sentence is grammatically incorrect: you are inserting the 是 of the 「是...的」grammar pattern in the middle of another grammar pattern, i.e., 你的帮助. The pattern is “subject 的 object":

• 他的車 --> his car
• 我的桌子 --> my table
• 你的鞋子 --> your shoes

This grammar pattern is one of the ways we can show possession in Chinese. You can't "break" this grammar pattern by inserting 是 in the middle of it; you have to treat it as a single, unbreakable construct. 

[LiMo]

I can't really say why, but your sentence does seem confusing. It kind of sounds like: "I think your (你的) was help useful." Basically I don't think you can split up the concept "your help" because it is one thing. Splitting it makes it read the way I did.

I suppose that in speech you could emphasise the word "help" but this structure would still need to be as the teacher described.

[kevjev]

Hi, thanks for the replies. I was just wondering if I wanted to emphasise that she helped me how would I rewrite the sentence?

[Lu]

You did help me 你是帮助我的。
You did help me a lot 你是帮我一个非常大的忙的。 (Actually I would leave out that second 的 in this sentence, it looks better without, but leaving it in now so you see what's happening).
 
As to 我觉得你的帮助非常有用, I would only 是的 that in two places:
我是觉得你的帮助非常有用的。 I do think that your help was very useful.
我觉得你的帮助是非常有用的。 I think that your help was very useful.

 

Someone will be around shortly to point out what I missed, so don't take this as the final post.

[kevjev]

Thanks for replying Lu! For the sentence, "你是帮我一个非常大的忙的。"I'm not sure what you meant when you said you're leaving the second 的 in this sentence to show me what's happening. Also, for the sentence you wrote, "我是觉得你的帮助非常有用的。I do think that your help was very useful." I'm assuming that in that sentence your emphasising feel? Correct if I'm wrong, but in the “是。。。的”, whatever is after the 是 is emphasised right?

 

[Lu]

I think 你是帮我一个非常大的忙。 is a better sentence than 你是帮我一个非常大的忙的。 But if I leave out that last 的, you won't see it's a 是...的 sentence, so I leave it in.

 

 

Also, for the sentence you wrote, "我是觉得你的帮助非常有用的。I do think that your help was very useful." I'm assuming that in that sentence your emphasising feel?

Yes, this emphasises the 觉得.

 

With some context in English:

 

'You didn't appreciate my help.'

'我是觉得你的帮助非常有用的。' (I do, I really feel your help was very useful)

 

or

 

我是觉得你的帮助非常有用的 (it's true that I think your help was very useful), but (despite the fact that I was happy with your help) I can't buy you dinner because I'm flat broke.

 

I hope this is of some help!

[Messidor]

I looked up some papers and found that 是……的 is rather a complex issue (I'm so ignorant...), and scholars are still arguing over the categories and different approaches of analyses. So I think I'd better edit my post lest my naive opinions impinge on your study @kevjev. And sorry for my precipitateness. [the thesis 《"是……的"语义角色及焦点指派》may be a good choice for much information on this controversial issue]

there are 3 types of 是……的 structure :

1) attributive

  a) single adjective or simple phrase 包子还是热的 （the dumpling is still hot）

the 的 here clings to the adjective 热, and the combination 热的 serves as an attributive 

  b) long or complex phrase 总统是由代表选出的 ( the president is selected by representatives)

the sentence can be written as 总统由代表选出, both 是 and 的 are emitted

 

2) possessive

包子是我的 （the dumpling is mine）

the 的 here clings to 我(I), 我的means mine (so 她的means hers), but 我的 has a looser relationship with 是. 

 

3) special usage

他是昨天打的人=他是在昨天打了人

 

But the 是……的 structure usually has some connotations（it depends on the context）when used as an attributive structure(when the attributive is quite long) or as emphatic structure, especially when 是 is stressed. People can simply say 他帮了我很大忙 when he/she got help from a guy; and if he/she wants to emphasize that's much help, he/she can say他实在帮了我很大忙 ---- 是……的 is obviously verbose here. When he/she said 他是帮了我很大忙的, he/she probably implied that there's more to the story ---- maybe the guy also made lots of trouble at the same time. As with Lu's example 我是觉得你的帮助非常有用的, it may have connotation as well when used in real context ---- 我是觉得你的帮助非常有用的(但别人不这么觉得) [ I do think that your help was very useful, (but others disagree)]. And your own example他是从中国来的 ---- the prepositional phrase 从中国来 serves as attributive so there must be a 的.

[kevjev]

Thanks again for the replies. It really did clear of the confusion I had with the structure. I guess it was my fault for not being clear with what I wanted with my teacher.

 

But for "包子还是热的 " isn't the 是 part of the 还是 conjunction. Or doesn't it matter?

[陳德聰]

还是  is a conjunction only when used in a question. In this example, 还 means still. I think it's a bit questionable to include 是我的 in the same group as these constructions, but that might just be me.

[Messidor]

 

 

还是  is a conjunction only when used in a question. In this example, 还 means still. I think it's a bit questionable to include 是我的 in the same group as these constructions, but that might just be me.

Thanx for correction. I made a mistake ---- the attributive 热的 is linked closer to 是    囧rz……

 

 

 

But for "包子还是热的 " isn't the 是 part of the 还是 conjunction. Or doesn't it matter?

as 陳德聰 said, when 还是 is used in alternative question, it iis a single word (conjunction；means or). And when used in imperative sentence to suggest ---- 你还是去医院检查一下比较好（you'd better have yourself examined in the hospital）, or used to mean the condition or pattern of sth remains the same ---- 晚会还是由他们主持（gala will still be resided by them; but we can use 还 insteadof 还是 here）, 还是 is also a single word（adverb）. When 还是 leads an attributive, 还 and 是 are in their loosest relationship （还still 是be）.

[陳德聰]

Honestly I think it makes the most sense to understand this sentence structurally as:

 

A [ 还 [ 是  B  的 ] ]

 

The 还 is telling you that [是热的] is still true. The sentence functions without 还, and I would not file this sentence in my brain under anything close to [还是].

[gaogaozhan]

 

包子还是热的

包子还热

包子还是热

包子还热的

包子还是热的

 

They are all correct.

The first two sentences emphasise on the noun, 包子

The last two on the adjective, 热的

[Messidor]

I agree

 

包子还是热的      

|----|-----------| 主谓

      |--|--------| 状心

          |--|-----| 述宾

还(still)是(be) here are two words used in a fixed order.