What is the 去 doing in 就飞到月亮上去了?

[陳德聰]

Again, grain of salt.

 

@Messidor,

The examples I gave were meant to be used as minimal pairs, thus the use of 到 vs 回. None of those sentences are meant to be taken as single utterances, but your suggestions are... not the only reading by any means, so I will stick to how I speak Chinese thanks

[Messidor]

@gaogaozhan

There's never a clear boundary between dialects and the "standard Chinese"(which, strictly speaking, doesn't exist). In my hometown we say 我们吃饭先 and we feel it's so natural to put 先 at the end of sentence, but we were taught that it's a "grammatically wrong" sentence in modern Chinese in school ╮(╯▽╰)╭. People from different language communities will have different standards (thresholds) of natural language use. And maybe I was wrong about that sentence. 囧rz……

btw I just had never seen “v.+向+location+去” before (only heard it spoken by people whose mother tongues are southern dialects); “v.+到+location+去”, “v.+回+location+去” are more common in school textbooks(mainland) (----and the two structures indicate that the subjects have arrived at the destinations)

 

 

@陳德聰

I think you wanted to explain to @dwq that there're 2 complements in the original sentence (prepositional phrase 到月亮上; directional verb 去), so whether they're 我 or 她, 到 or 向 doesn't matter at all.

I could have acted inadvertently as a lackey of the official standards.

I hope my posts didn't offend you

[gaogaozhan]

 

我们吃饭先

 

这叫语病啊。小学有学过。

 

 

“v.+向+location+去” before (only heard it spoken by people whose mother tongues are southern dialects)

 

哈哈，真的假的？被你猜中了，可惜没奖品。

[陳德聰]

Is there anything else relevant to add or are we just going to devolve into attacking each others' Chinese?

[Pedroski]

Ah well, if you knew German, there would be no problem understanding this 去 = hin = to, towards. The verb in German would be 'hinfliegen = fly to'. The counterpart to 去 is 来 = from。

 

最后就飞到月亮上去了。

in the end then she flew up to the moon

schließlich flog sie （hinauf（上）） zum Mond hin（去） (in German I would rather lose the 上, and leave out hinauf)

 

So 去 tells us the direction and works with 飞。Chinese likes lots of double-ups '在。。。中， 在。。。里， 到。。。去‘

[Messidor]

这叫语病啊。小学有学过

这么判断不合适。因为(东)南方地区许多方言的演变方式与北方方言不同（通常的说法是保留了许多古代汉语的语法），比如副词“先”放在动词“吃饭”后。普通话把这叫后置，对于方言母语的人来说，普通话的“先吃饭”是前置。

我和同学交流时两种语码“我们吃饭先”“我们先吃饭”混用。和亲属交流就只能用前者，否则我会被认为”说话生疏”，“以书呆子的方式/一副高高在上的样子说话”。

学校需要推广普通话，所以需要可操作化的“标准”，需要在不同语码中挑出“正确的”一个/若干个，剩下的就只能是“错误的”。学校通过各种手段（具体到用词造句、修改语病等等）生产并再生产它的“真理”。方言遭受的伤害不仅是成为了边缘化的语言选择，也不仅是与书面语逐渐脱离因此逐渐萎缩，还有它们被贴上“错误”的标签、在学校真理再生产过程中沉冤无可昭雪。

 

没有冒犯的意思。只不过回忆起社会语言学，批评一下学校教育。

PS 按照学校标准，“小学有学过”也是语病，“有”是赘余。

[Messidor]

Just like different groups of different parties or factions attack each other because there're different ideologies.

There's one problem I'm pondering: a foreigner said to me 我想把事情不搞砸, I know she meant 我不想把事情搞砸, but I understood her sentence anyway, should I tell her that the sentence was "wrong" or should I accept it as a foreign variety? How to keep balance between standard and dialectal, or variety and error ?

Thanks for your suspicion anyway @gaogaozhan @陳德聰 I started to reflect on the school standards imposed upon me

And apology for my probably aggressive tone since my English is poor and I wrote posts as if I was writing compositions for tests or abstracts

[dwq]

To express sth like "go from the spaceship over the moon to the surface of the moon down there" , Chinese will still say 到月亮上去 and it's unnecessary to use any word that means "down". Another example, X and Y are on the tree and Y commands X to climb down the tree to the ground, he can say 到地面去。

Let's use a location that has less ambiguity. Say you are on the 2nd floor and someone asked where your friend went. You answered that his mom called him from the 1st floor, and:

他跑下去了。

I hope you'll agree this is grammatically correct. This uses the compound directional complement 下去.

他跑[下去]了。

Now consider another possible answer.

他跑到一樓去了。

Now, if you accept this sentence has 2 complements like the original sentence in the OP,

他跑[到一樓][去]了。

The 2nd complement is a directional complement 去.

The point in contention is whether we can use a compound directional complement in place of it.

他跑[到一樓][下去]了。

Some of you say this is totally unnatural. I think I'll side with 陳德聰 and take a grain of salt on that.

But let's do say it is unnatural. In that case let's think about the correct way to express the concept "down and away from us" and "to the 1st floor" in Putonghua.

Gaogaozhan says

 

到月亮下去 should be 下去到月亮 or 到月亮上

If we accept that as correct, we can write:

他跑[下去][到一樓]了。

What do you think about this sentence?

Or if you think the pattern is "到[place]來/去", does that mean we have to write this?

他跑[下去][到一樓][去]了。

[gaogaozhan]

 

这么判断不合适。

 

不过，小学课本上真的把这一类词句当语病来教小朋友的哦。

 

 

“我们吃饭先”“我们先吃饭”混用

 

像你形容那样，不过我们更习惯把“饭”省略掉。

直接说“我们吃先”、“我们先吃”。哈哈。好像更糟糕哦？

 

 

“小学有学过”也是语病，“有”是赘余。

 

啊，这也是南方人说话的一种“特色”吧？

我的台湾朋友也那么说哦，什么都“有＋（动词）过”吗？

还有“有没有＋（动词）”也是常犯的语病。

 

 

他跑[下去][到一樓]了。

 

》dwq

 

That's a bit odd to me.

I don't know, I would probably say,

他跑到一樓了 or

他跑去一樓了 or

他下到一樓了 or

他下去一樓了

[陳德聰]

Thus illustrating the point.

 

I'll take standard vs dialect variation to PM.