Help my Chinese In-Laws are killing me

[hutch24242002]

I have been with a Chinese Woman 9 years, we been married for almost 3(We are both 31).  Her parents were never crazy about me.  Since we gotten married we started a family real estate business which I essentially run the whole operation, don't see a penny.  I have a job where I travel 40+ weeks a year doing software installs in the United States, plus I have military duty, and graduate school.

 

They constantly criticize me.  Asking why don't I have more money, when in the last 30 months I used 30K of my personal funds to pay for their rehabs on the properties they purchased(plus money I put in too). I was told I could get rental money to pay it back, never happened all the profits go to them, and I often cover things like water bills, property taxes, insurance etc.  The money is being made they just extract it all as fast as it comes in.  Its not 1 or 2 properties its 11. But it doesn't stop there my wife is a nurse.  They randomly demand money from her too.  not $100 but $2-$5K, often they just take the money out of a bank account we setup to pass money between the USA and Canada.  They pull the money on the Canada side, if there is a shortage its comes out of our American banking Accounts.

 

I took everyone to NYC(they have never been) for Christmas, In-laws, and my wife's little sister(16), Nice Hotel in Times Square, $600/night, 5 days they had their own rooms from me and my wife. I Paid for everything meals, transportation, shopping.  Not even a thank you from the parents.

 

The last straw is we recently had a baby and I was deployed a few days after the birth for 7 months(3 months to go), taking a nice cut in pay. Plus my wife is on maternity leave staying with the baby.  Her parents are helping out.  I asked my wife if she wanted a nanny or au pair. she refused.  I even offered for my mom to come up and help. My Father lives 10 miles from us he offered to take time off work and watch the baby.  Her parents are extracting funds out of the rental business at alarming rates, our personal accounts, and then my wife has to buy them gifts for "gratitude". $13K USD moved into Canada and converted to Canadian Dollars since June 23 alone. I cant stop them right now because I'm in war zone, and my wife is already stressed. Plus another $2K in gifts for gratitude.  

 

My Wife knows they are out of control, but if she says anything they call her ungrateful or selfish. From what I read I lack any "rank" in their culture, so what I say, or am concerned about lacks any weight.

 

Im at my wits end I have 5 people i'm supporting in two countries.  I have a Wife terrified to stand up to her parents, and in-laws that have no concept of boundaries.  If i tell them no, it proves i'm unworthy of their daughter as they suspected, and they will disown her. My wife will be isolated from her sister, and mad at me that she lost her parents.

 

What am I doing wrong, how should I be handling them while respecting their culture.

[edelweis]

This looks complicated. Can you get out of the rental business? Do you actually own anything of it? Do you have a contract or proof that you invested 30K in it? Are you financially liable if the business fails? (I mean can you lose more than the 30K?).

 

Do you have savings/other accounts that the parents can't touch and can't pressure your wife into giving up to them?

Is there a risk that they can leave you penniless in case you're unable to work and make money for some reason?

 

Does your wife have friends where you live?

Can she have access to some help or advice from a neutral 3rd party?

 

Also does she have basic accounting knowledge? Does she have a realistic view of the family's finances?

Perhaps she can enroll in a basic course if she doesn't?

 

The situation does not sound normal, and I don't think it's really a matter of respecting their culture, but what do I know.

 

In any case perhaps you had better get ready to say goodbye to the 30K, separate your finances and business from your in-laws', and try to limit the "gratitude" money by keeping a separate account for it.

When necessary, apologize for not having more money for the gifts, and apologetically explain that the 30K you invested are not giving you any interest back, too bad.

 

And keep a detailed tally of the money you gave them with all bank receipts etc.

Not that it can be of great help right now, but someday (perhaps when the sister is somewhat independent, or if your financial situation became bad enough) your wife might decide herself that the whole thing has gone on long enough.

[Angelina]

You have a baby, I would think well before giving you any advice.

[roddy]

You do not have a Chinese culture problem. If these people were in China, with a Chinese son-in-law, their behaviour would still be off the charts. You have a greedy and parasitic in-laws problem. What you need to do will depend on the actual circumstances - what's in your name, what's in your wife's name, what's in their name, etc. If push comes to shove, where are your wife's loyalties going to lie? Are you willing and able to cut them off financially - or at least get into a situation where you decide what they're entitled to, rather than them apparently having the run of the bank accounts?

 

Stop worrying about Chinese culture. You've married into a hugely dysfunctional family, but it could have been American or Canadian - the only difference is you've put up with it longer as you've thought it's normal for Chinese. It isn't. Even if it was normal, that's no reason to put up with it.

[anonymoose]

Transfer as much of the business as possible to your own private ownership without letting any of them know (except your wife, of course), and just run that part on your own without them even knowing about the existence of it. Of course they will complain that the income from the part they know about is declining, but from what it sounds like, they will never be satisfied anyway. I would just do as much business as possible and cut them completely out of it.

[hutch24242002]

I'll give some background...
I'm a African-American, my wife moved from Shenzhen to Toronto when she was 14, She moved to the USA when she 22 to take a job.  I was still in college when we met. I finished about two years later, from a directional school with a Liberal Arts Degree.  During that time the parents were extremely opposed to her dating me, even threaten to disowning her.  I was not welcomed at their home.  I graduated college in tough job market, so after working for a cellphone company a few months I joined the Air Force PT.  Once I got home from Military Training for about year my civilian career started improving. From 2006 to 2009 my wife made more money, she basically supported me. since then I've done pretty well and became the breadwinner in 2010, and they have warmed up to me in lots of ways.

 

 

But they feel I dragged their daughter down.  I'm not a Doctor or Engineer, plus we are basically the same age(i'm 4 months older). So they feel there daughter(and them) basically had no financial gain from our relationship.  They voiced this in numerous ways for years.  They are a middle class family from Toronto. I made looking back on it some horrible errors...

 

Because of the lack of communication, we got engaged I didn't ask her Father's permission.  Then with because of issues with getting families all in the same city for a wedding we just married, and told them after the fact.

 

So in many ways I'm the Son-in-Law they never wanted.  Though both my parents are Professionals(Engineer and Nurse) they divorced after 22 years of marriage, which her parents don't approve of.

 

Shortly after getting married my Wife and I purchased a home, financing fell apart for reasons that were not my or wife's fault.  So I went to my parents for some money and she went to hers.  We secured the funds, but I wanted to make it legit and protect everyone involved. So I got a lawyer and had the lawyer document the funds and draw up mortgages to be paid to our parents.  The day after the mortgage closed I went to a bank and began a refi process to get the money back to our parents in about 90 days.  The bank was ready to cut my parents and her parents their checks for their respective money. Her parents refused to sign paperwork to get their money back.  They said this was all a ploy for me to get a hold of their money.  It turns out my Wife didn't tell them my name was on the house purchase.  They demanded they would disown my Wife unless I signed over the deed and they would pay my father back, which they did.  I had to eat a small loss of money in the deal, but my Father was made whole so I was happy.

 

They then started on a war path, telling my Wife that we couldn't buy the house because I was broke and had no money, or job(which I did, just not one they understood). How she choose a horrible husband, and she should be ashamed. My wife tried to explain it was the bank's fault.  So I confronted them asked what could I do to get their approval. They said buy a house. So I took my money and bought a home in our Metro Area's 3-4 most exclusive neighborhoods.   My Wife's distant Aunt that lives in the area went out with them shortly after and told them people don't buy into that neighborhood typically under 30 years old, esp without help from family. The Aunt also has colleague thats works in her hospital that knows me.  The colleague is a Doctor who's kids I went to HS with.  That made her parents ears perk up because they thought my family was poor, at that point they never met my parents because they refused, they have since then on 3-4 occasions. I thought that would have satisfied them but it made it worse in retrospect.

 

Between original home I purchased, and the one purchased to "prove" myself in that 6 month time span I monetized two of the 4 floors into rentals units to $2500/mo plus My Wife's and I original home we purchased in 2009(rented for $900/mo) before we were married for a total of 3 rental units. Thats when I started becoming their personal ATM machine, they said we had to buy them out of the property with rental money because of their daughter's "deception". They wont accept the money from the bank.  Then Her parents went on a spending spree buying house after house for about a 6-7 months, hitting me up for money, then telling me they need me to find them a renter. I thought okay maybe things were getting better maybe they trust me. Thats when they just started just taking money out.  It was like once I showed I could live in a certain neighborhood it green-lighted them that I wasn't a broke Black Person from America, with a no-name degree, from a no-name school, with divorced parents.

 

Then about a month before the baby was born we get notification I'm getting deployed. I just finished previous years taxes and they were getting too complicated for me to do(I've taken 3 College Level ACC courses). I decide this is a full fledged operation we have going, So I find a Chinese Lawyer and CPA who speak Cantonese and give them all the needed business docs, bank statements, credit cards, insurances, to review whats happening for a business formation, and to unwind the financials. We have a 4 hour consult, and they actually take my side. Explaining to my In-Laws whats happening.  At the consult they seemed reasonable, and attentive, and we gave them documents to move everything into a business entity. They said they would review the docs(I also had drawn up in Chinese).

 

They calmed down it seemed, then as soon as I left the Country, money started flying out of our bank accounts faster than they normally do.  What made it worst was my wife wasn't working anymore, so $1000 matters.  After checking my account statements 3 days ago is when I nearly lost it.  When I saw so much money leaving through multiple avenues. I realized how out of control this had become.  I started reading up on Chinese marriage and family life.  It became disheartening how I'm viewed historical as a newcomer in the family, and how Chinese sometimes feel about Westerners and their daughters...I know I should get home and play hard ball, but I don't want to blow up my wife's family.  I came from a home where the families hated each other, I just want peace. I feel my son deserves to have his grandparents, and both cultures.

[889]

You shouldn't be in business with your in-laws. Repeat: you should not be in business with your in-laws.

It doesn't sound like you've ever had a healthy personal relationship with them and adding on a business/money relationship was a very bad idea. No doubt it's going to cost you a lot to extract yourself from them. Financially you might well be better off staying in business with them. And you'll still have plenty of other problems with them even after the business relationship ends. But getting out will reduce the aggravation substantially, and would well be worth it on that basis alone.

It's clear you cannot go through life with this constant sore. So stop talking about incorporating your business relationship with your in-laws and start talking about getting out, as soon as you possibly can. Forget about how much money it's going to cost you and instead think about how relieved you'll feel when it's over.
 

[dwq]

Make sure the properties you paid for are still under your name and separate them from those your in-laws paid for. Just tell them their rental business has gotten too big for you to manage and let them set up their own company to manage that.

The goal is to not let them take money out of the rents from your properties.

The hard part is probably going to work this out with your wife. Sit down with her and document all your income and expenses and work out how much you can let her give her parents per month. Make sure she understands you cannot afford to give them unlimited money. If she proves not able to comprehend that you might need to separate your finances as well. Let her give all the money she earns to her parents but don't let her touch any of your money apart from an agreed upon family and living expense.

[edelweis]

I just want peace. I feel my son deserves to have his grandparents, and both cultures.

This is an admirable ideal.

From what you've said though, the reality is that your wife's parents emotionally blackmail her and constantly criticize you unless you give them money. Is that the "Chinese culture" you want your son to be exposed to?

 

(I'm not saying "cut all ties with them". Only from an external, uninformed point of view, it doesn't seem like your son will benefit all that much from having them around. It rather seems like they will berate and blackmail him too.)

[Shelley]

Just tell them everything they take, they take from their grandchild. I cannot comment too much as i feel my suggestions would be too strong.

[gato]

Though it should be pretty easy to describe, your description above is not at all clear about who owns what, whose names are on the bank accounts and home title deeds.

This suggests that you might be too stressed right now in a war zone (Afghanistan?) to deal with this situation.

There also seems to be lack of communication with your wife. Other than her being needy and being scared of her parents, you don't say what she's told you about the situation.

Is it possible for you to hire a lawyer to help sort this out? Not sure clear how much you can do from Afghanistan. You need to do an orderly exit from this entangled business relationship with your in-laws.

[889]

Yes, he needs a third party to help him get out of this situation. Dealing directly with the in-laws will only make the bad situation worse.

Being overseas actually helps, since it provides a justification to the in-laws for using an intermediary. And it also means the OP doesn't have to worry about the in-laws short-circuiting the intermediary and showing up on his doorstep.

As to names on the title deeds and loan agreements and bank accounts, they are what they are. No doubt with hindsight the OP would have structured this more carefully, but my best guess is that taking a financial bath will be the price of getting out of this quickly and with the least pain. Just do it and move on.

[Flickserve]

1) they don't like you

2) if, after 9 years and a baby, they don't change, they will never change

3) cut your losses and run

4) it will be hard for the wife

5) ultimately she will have to choose you as the husband. If she doesn't, bye bye.

6) refuse to have anymore financial transactions with them

7) refuse to see them.

8 ) forbid your wife to contact them

9) don't ask for any help from them at all. They will only use it as emotional blackmail. They will use their daughter for this.

Agree with Roddy. Nasty people. They don't have to like you but should still respect you. Good luck with the cleaning up process. Cut your losses. Consider moving out of the country.

[abcdefg]

I came from a home where the families hated each other, I just want peace.

 

Sometimes pursuing peace at any price is not the best course of action.

[heifeng]

I'm going to try to answer this mainly from a cultural perspective...and with some general reason..and I do want to "gently" play devil's advocate a bit just to give some alternative perspective.

 

IN addition to what has been said above....

 

They will continue to go to whomever is the weakest link (i.e. her)... Therefore, you and her need to have a united front and that means she should listen to you as her husband rather than her family since she is already a married woman and has entered YOUR FAMILY and therefore YOU should be calling the shots. (Maybe this sounds odd (& old fashion in the West), but if she wants to keep up a relationship with them instead of just cutting them off, then in my opinion she should at least act like she's not in control of ANY MONEY herself b/c it's all controlled by you as the man of the house....if she can't keep that up, then....then you probably need to have a talk with her. (Note Gato's comment above too)

 

Also, all these 'what if's" they threaten to do this/that. Well would it actually be worse than what is happening now and would it in reality go on forever!? Also her sister is 16...will be an adult in a few years I'm sure she can use the internet to keep in touch and isn't kept tethered all the time..

 

Also, this: 

My wife will be isolated from her sister, and mad at me that she lost her parents.

 

 

Again, she entered into your family. If her family disowns her, to me that sounds odd b/c technically in marriage you "lose" your daughter anyway, so if they are cutting HER off then that is their own selfishness & loss. Also, it sounds like an empty threat to me (in Chinese culture, nothing is really so black & white...many grey areas) and in reality this also shoots them in the foot in the long run b/c they probably will need/want family support (plus seeing grandchild) in the future.

 

From what I read I lack any "rank" in their culture, so what I say, or am concerned about lacks any weight

 

 

I would actually disagree with this. But I think your wife needs to not give money to them directly or without your authorization. This undermines you. 

 

 

From what you have posted you are indeed a good son-in-law, they ARE taking advantage it appears, and rather than giving them this extra leeway b/c you are worried about disrespecting them, know that they are being disrespectful (as mentioned above). (UNLESS There is something happening which they are NOT telling you, which this can happen alot in Chinese families, what you DON'T know won't be told to you b/c it'd decided better to not let you know/worry, etc). NOW, the flip side of this is that they have a set expectation that their children are suppose to take care of them and they don't think they are being outrageous (and again this may NOT be 100% super clear but more of an understanding). In the 9 years of being together with your now wife, do you have a CLEAR picture of how the in-laws are set up for retirement and what the expectation is for their children  'supporting' them during old age? Is there something that your wife needs to tell YOU that she is going to be expected to care for them or are there any other OLDER children (or males) in the family? They sound greedy yes, and maybe they have a ton of money stashed away, but maybe they don't. Their financial situation (and I don't know how long they have been in Canada....sees like a while, not like brand new immigrants) should probably be clearer to you and your wife to make appropriate money allocations for them as well as for your own family.

 

HOWEVER, as far as culture, appreciation can be shown in various ways, but note that in Chinese families to say something like "THANK YOU" is seen as a formality that would be actually somewhat awkward and distant  ....I would never really say thank you to my mother-in-law and my husband would probably give me a funny look if I said  谢谢 to him

 

Also, there are a number of members on this board with Chinese spouses but on THIS website: http://candleforlove.com/forums/  everyone is basically married or engaged to a Chinese women, just an FYI since I see you only have 2 posts on this forum. They might have similar situations (ie inlaws  demanding things!) and helpful suggestions as well so you get as much feedback/recommendations as possible.

 

In closing, from a filial Chinese child's perspective it is their obligation to take care of their parents otherwise it will weigh very, very heavily on them. Therefore, I am sure it WILL be important for you to help out your in-laws BUT within the limitations you and your wife can presently accept. Therefore, get important documents, accounts in order, and approach this as something that has to be tamed....and then last resort cutting them off since clearly I am sure that is not an ideal option either.

[hutch24242002]

I appreciate everyone's comments and advice above.  There is a part of me thats wants to cut my losses and walk away.  There is another part of me that wants to just take complete control of everything.

 

I talked to my Dad about the situation a couple months back, he doesn't want me to cut them off because he said this is happening for a reason, and there are landmines I can't see.  He suggested to try to hold them at bay until I get home, and pickup where I left off with the accountants and lawyers.  He said I did the right thing by getting my finances and bills all out in the open.  Because transparency makes people understand.  He told me they need to open their books also. 

My Wife said they will balk because they feel its not our business.  I feel I'm supporting them, they need to get open their books.  She is the oldest of only two daughters.  She is 31, sister is 16.  In the past if my Wife didn't meet their demands they have cutoff their internet and/or phone service at the home to isolate themselves, and her sister would write us emails from school. That was a few years back.

 

There is a very high expectation that their kids take care of them.  I know they couldn't support their parents as needed and their siblings had to help out, and they "lost face".  Supposedly thats what their friends have happening in China, and their friends in Toronto. FYI I am the only non-Chinese person they deal with at all in their life.  Even the company my Father-in-Law works for is owned by and only employs Chinese. I know they like to show-off to some their friends in some regards.  I was able to get floor seats to a NBA Game a couple times for the 5 of us, and I've taken everyone on vacation a couple times.  I know they show their friends and family that stuff. So I know there is some "Keeping up with the Joneses". Which I was taught to avoid because I grew up in an upper-middle class to Affluent neighborhood.  My parents worked to get there, I remember living in the inner-city, and how My dad received a couple big promotions and bonuses at work, my mom received her Nursing License and we moved. But I also remember kids my Father supervised or managed their parents lived in nicer homes, or drove nicer cars than us.  Why? Because Joneses have things going on you don't know about. Like I went school with lots of kids who's families were Old Industrialist of the Midwest.  Yea that was 100 years ago, but its amazing the lifestyle people can live when they make $80K a year with a $60K a year trust fund, oh and their college is paid for because their grandfather died in 1985 and his estate locked in tuition rates then. So when your friends are driving BMWs, Corvettes, or Escalades when they are 17, realize someone paid for their life start up probably before they were born, and your Mom and Dad are just trying to get you setup so you don't have $50K in student loans.

 

I know they are personally, professionally, and financially hurt leaving China when they did, they had nice jobs working for Energy, and Construction Firms, by all accounts were doing very well. They came to NA for opportunity.  There is a feeling they lost out, and it hurts them.  They struggled heavily being here. So lots of this is they are vicariously trying to play out their adult lives again. They were in their mid-40s when they immigrated to Canada. I know they say to my Wife she owes them for them bringing her here.

 

They feel my Wife and I are stupid with money because, my wife got in credit card debt(about $9k) in college and they bailed her out.  When my wife and I were dating in 2009 they found a collection notice(they went through my mail) that said I owed $1200.  I did, I defaulted on a credit card when I was 21. I paid it off when I graduated college, and got a job. No problems since, but thats their proof.  So when they hear and see how much money I make alone, they feel I can't handle it. Her Father made less than $40k a year in Toronto, they view "they made it".  They view I make more than double that, and their daughter works, we should have more, and be able to do more.  Well obviously they are comparing 15 years of building versus my Wife and I only being married for almost three years, and being joint financially for almost six.

 

 

If when we first started the nastiness was probably an eight, they were rude and disrespectful to me, my family. It was really ugly.  Then now its a three.  Which is why it took so long for us to get married.  I have worked long and very hard to get them to the point of not yelling at me every time they see me, and not bad mouthing me behind my back to my wife(which has stopped in the last year or so). The thing that hurt me the most in the recent events is they did this while I was out of the Country and couldn't stop them. They know their daughter isn't working. They know we just had a baby. Its like they hit us at the most vulnerable time. I put them on a budget of how much much money they get per month, and they would take extra amounts usually, but frankly it was never anything to get excited over. I don't need the rental income to survive or live comfortable, but with my Wife not working the last five months, my pay cut for the military, and them withdrawing money out to the point I'm covering business expenses with my personal funds, it was shocking. I don't know is this behavior because they know the details of our fiances and they view we can afford it. If they have something going on they won't admit to.  Which I know its a major difference between our families.  My family lives very out in the open.  If I got in trouble in school my parents just announce it.  They feel people know anyway so own it.  Her parents just even a off hand like "This Project at work sucks" causes an all out panic that something is drastically wrong.

 

I know what has to be done. I feel much better knowing these are just straight "family issues" that have a cultural basis vs there is a cultural expectation that the In-laws run and dictate your household, which I was terrified of for numerous reasons. I didn't want to offend tradition or culture.

 

I feel much better, I know what to do now.

[studychinese]

 

 

6) refuse to have anymore financial transactions with them

7) refuse to see them.

8 ) forbid your wife to contact them 

9) don't ask for any help from them at all. They will only use it as emotional blackmail. They will use their daughter for this.

 

This. 

 

There is a point where you just have to separate entirely. It seems fairly clear that they are never going to accept your relationship so there is no need to maintain a relationship with them. Once they see your determination they may change their minds.

[Lu]

8 ) forbid your wife to contact them

Not this, though. Your wife is her own person, a grown woman who needs to make her own choices. You get to draw your boundaries, and you certainly should here, but you cannot and should not draw hers. That way lies fights and nastiness but this time with your wife. Don't force her to choose between you and her parents.

 

I don't understand the entire picture, but it seems to me that step one should be to remove their authorisation to take money from that account, or stop putting money into it, or some equivalent action that prevents them from just taking any money they want from you. This should not be too difficult. You can continue to give them money (or you can let your wife give them money), but that should be your action not theirs.

 

Good luck, this sounds like an awful situation. I agree with others that if they haven't warmed to you after nine years and a baby, they likely won't in the future and the best you can hope for is to not have open warfare.

[roddy]

"I know what has to be done. I feel much better knowing these are just straight "family issues" that have a cultural basis vs there is a cultural expectation that the In-laws run and dictate your household, which I was terrified of for numerous reasons. I didn't want to offend tradition or culture."

That's the right attitude to be taking. You'll quite possibly get told 'oh, but as a Chinese family...' or 'in China...' - don't take it. They aren't in China, their daughter did not marry a Chinese man. Prioritize your nuclear family, make whatever transfers you and your wife deem fair and reasonable, and get on with your life. 

 

Let us know how you get on. 

 

Edit: I wouldn't go with the 'refuse to see them' or 'forbid your wife to have contact' ideas - be the bigger man.

[dwq]

I know they are personally, professionally, and financially hurt leaving China when they did, they had nice jobs working for Energy, and Construction Firms, by all accounts were doing very well. They came to NA for opportunity. There is a feeling they lost out, and it hurts them. They struggled heavily being here. So lots of this is they are vicariously trying to play out their adult lives again. They were in their mid-40s when they immigrated to Canada. I know they say to my Wife she owes them for them bringing her here.

Your wife's future might be one of the reason they moved, and while there might be some emotional baggage, ultimately it was their own decision to leave China and neither your wife, and especially not you, should bear responsibility for it.