Chinese Grammar Wiki - Just a recommendation

[Johnny20270]

Been using the Grammar Wiki lately and I should say its excellent. Really top marks to the guys that wrote! Its crystal clear, and easy to remember as the choice of English used to explain it is spot on. I really like the casual nature of it. Whats strange is that I have read most of it before in Grammar books but a lot didn't seem to stick, maybe cause the choice of language is too formal,

 

Well done to the team. 

[Shelley]

Have to agree, thumbs up.

[Hofmann]

Something I think the writers consciously do is focus on what grammatical constructions do instead of what they are. For example, 了 is introduced as a particle you use to express something completed. Nowhere is "perfective aspect" mentioned, even though 了 is a perfective aspect particle. This has advantages and disadvantages. Laypeople are quick to understand roughly how to use the language, while those who want to understand syntax thoroughly may find the information unclear.

[Angelina]

Agreed. It's like learning English grammar without ever hearing the word "tense". Maybe I'm partial. I am more interested in grammar than in Sinitic languages specifically.

On the other hand, at least there is something learners can find useful.

[Johnny20270]

Good comments, 

 

 

@Hofmann

I think because they have aimed a lot of it at specific HSK levels the information and the way is presented is just right. Any more is just overload in my view. I have no idea what an "perfective aspect" is and would just confuse me at this stage. For me personally this is very useful as too many grammar books do cover a lot more but I often "can't see the forest for the trees" etc I think the grammar has done an excellent job that way. Its refreshing view from traditional grammar books 

 

 

Laypeople are quick to understand roughly how to use the language, while those who want to understand syntax thoroughly may find the information unclear.

 

 

Yes I can see where that is a concern

[Shelley]

Like many people my age, I was not taught grammar at school. My mother tongue is English, I was never taught how to speak English, I just learnt it as I grew up.

 

We did touch upon some aspects of grammar at school, but nothing close to what I am learning for Chinese. I have no idea what a "perfect aspect" is, but I use it all the time (I assume I use it). Just because I don't know what it is called, doesn't mean I don't use it correctly.

 

For me, the lack of grammatical terms really makes it accessible and easy to understand.

 

I am sure someone will tell that my English would be improved if I learnt English grammar terms, but I don't see the need. I am learning more English grammar terms to learn Chinese than for English.

 

If someone wants a grammar text with more grammar terms, I would point them towards Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar, the terminology used in this book really put me off and I have abandoned it for books with less terminology.

[Johnny20270]

If someone wants a grammar text with more grammar terms, I would point them towards Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar, the terminology used in this book really put me off and I have abandoned it for books with less terminology.

 

 

 

I have the same issue with Yip Po Ching / Don Remington's book. All though I think they are great, they are a bit impenetrable at times and you really need to plod through them.

 

I think with the wiki, its easy to knit pick around with the exactness of what they write but I am primarily interested in trying to employ what I read. The resistance of the authors to avoid the nuances of the grammar points is welcoming (for me away!)

[Kenny同志]

I am not trying to downgrade the site but some example sentences there are so bad that it's probably not a very good idea to imitate them. It's fine if you are learning only the grammar points though.

 

This discussion on proz.com might be of interest to some of us.

[LauraS]

I have to agree with Kenny on this one. I have learnt the hard way that the example sentences on there are incorrect.

[Altair]

Does anyone have an example of a problematic example sentence?  I am curious about what type of mistakes might be made.

[Kenny同志]

Does anyone have an example of a problematic example sentence?  I am curious about what type of mistakes might be made.

 

 

You can view some of the example sentences by following the link in my last post.

[Johnny20270]

Hi Kenny, thanks for your post. Thats interesting but somewhat disappointing now.

I really like the lay out and high level view of the site. I've made a lot of flash cards from the info, not for SR purposes but simply as a mobile revision tool. Been very helpful.

[Ness]

Like many people my age, I was not taught grammar at school. My mother tongue is English, I was never taught how to speak English, I just learnt it as I grew up.

 

We did touch upon some aspects of grammar at school, but nothing close to what I am learning for Chinese. I have no idea what a "perfect aspect" is, but I use it all the time (I assume I use it). Just because I don't know what it is called, doesn't mean I don't use it correctly.

 

For me, the lack of grammatical terms really makes it accessible and easy to understand.

 

I am sure someone will tell that my English would be improved if I learnt English grammar terms, but I don't see the need. I am learning more English grammar terms to learn Chinese than for English.

 

If someone wants a grammar text with more grammar terms, I would point them towards Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar, the terminology used in this book really put me off and I have abandoned it for books with less terminology

 

Thanks. This post is really encouraging. I've just started using the Grammar wiki. Chinese grammar is my biggest hardship in learning the language thus far. I know how to get better at speaking. I know how to get better at character memorization. Grammar isn't so simple as it there are a lot of rules. And I'm not that old, but I never memorized or cared to learn how English works. It's my native togune and I can speak it. But if asked to explain the nuances of it, there is no way I can do it. A lot of grammar books I've come across have all this terminology I don't understand. They need a Chinese grammar book that dumbs things down for folks, and doesn't assume everyone knows every grammar terminology. Seems like the wiki is the closest we'll get thus far. I'm anxious to see if it will help.

[Johnny20270]

Hi Ness, I have been using this and grammar books for a while.

 

I personally recommend "Basic Chinese Grammar" and "Intermediate Chinese Grammar" by Yip Po Ching / Don Rimmington. They do have some drawbacks but overall great in my opinion They seemed to focus on exactness rather readability. They make a nice companion to the Wiki as a lot of the wiki is around sentence patterns, comparison of similar words which I really like. The grammar books I mention barely discuss that and can be a bit impenetrable at times . However I am a little concerned by Kennys useful comments above on the incorrectness of the wiki at times. 

 

(Claudi Ross books seem excellent too and seem more encompasing than the two I noted )

 

As for using my grammar books. I needed to first do a crash course on English grammar. I think its worth brushing up on that and especially terminology 

[shroiookami]

I also use this. I am a beginner. I found some article about a man trying to learn mandarin in two days. I'm not aiming for two days, but i'm using the same method. Basically, you learn all of the grammar first, using just enough vocabulary to use the grammar, until it is permanently ingrained. You then spend time gradually learning the vocabulary you need to express yourself in daily life. So, once the grammar is down, you basically go out and speak until you are fluent. Of course, it will be more work than it sounds (no free lunch in language), but the method makes absolute sense. So, I have spent a month or so learning pronunciation and tones. Now Im learning grammar. Once Ive learned the most fundamental grammar, I will build vocabulary and learn more advanced "specialty" grammar points as they come up.