Confused about voiceless consonant b

[wcon]

Please help me understand and produce voiceless consonant "b".

 

My textbook, Chinese Made Easier, usually helpful, is not so good on this point:

 

Your aim is to make a Chinese b so that the buzzing sound of the vocal cords starts just as your lips come apart, neither sooner nor later.

 

Before my lips come apart, no air is flowing through my vocal cords--I can't make a buzzing sound even if I want to.  How then could a "b" ever be voiced?  It seems that the best one can do to voice a "b" is to start buzzing as soon as the lips come apart.  And that is what CME is telling us to do, while telling us that it is voiceless.

 

[edelweis]

I think pinyin "b" is close to "p".

Speakers of languages such as French where the p sound is softer than in English are advised to pronounce

Pinyin "b" like French p (if you hold a piece of paper in front of your mouth it should barely vibrate)

Pinyin "p" like English p (the piece of paper should visibly move because air explosively escapes your mouth).

Not sure about the voiced/unvoiced thing - I tend to voice a little Pinyin "b" in some contexts (less than French or English b though) but I'm not sure how standard that is.

[davoosh]

Edelweis is right, most analyses of Chinese say that what corresponds to the Pinyin <b> is actually an unvoiced, unaspirated /p/ (similar to /p/ in Spanish).

 

However, in my experience I have found that pronouncing it as a voiced /b/ does not seem to cause any trouble with understanding and most speakers haven't even noticed the difference when I've purposefully asked. (Or it could be that English /b/ is actually a bit unvoiced too).

[Shelley]

Beijing was called Peking because the b was misheard as a p, this gives you a clue as to how it should sound. A chinese b is more explosive than an english b but not overly.

 

If you say p and b one after the other, trying to make the b sound a bit like a p this is probably a good approximation.

[Hofmann]

You speak English? Say "spy." The "p" in "spy" is what you're looking for. Similarly, "stall" for /t/ and "skill" for /k/.

[anonymoose]

But it's very difficult to say the p in spy in isolation.

[Altair]

Just draw out the pronunciation over several seconds, saying "ssssssssppyyyyyyyyy". Then gradually figure out how to decrease the "s" part until you can leave it out completely.

Also, try hearing the difference between "(have) its pie" and "(have) it spy" or "(have) it start" and "(have) its tart" or also "(have) its can" and "(have) it scan". If you emphasize the beginning of the last word, a native English speaker should clearly hear the difference.

[Altair]

Some languages distinguish between a "p" and a "b" sound using only a difference in aspiration. Examples are Chinese and Icelandic. Other languages differentiate them only be voicing, such as French and perhaps Spanish. Yet others, like English tend to use a little bit of both.

Since English uses both voicing and aspiration, it tends to use lighter voicing and lighter aspiration than languages that use only one or the other. At the beginning of a word, English speakers do not voice an entire consonant, but begin voicing part way through. This is different from how French speakers do it. Similarly, English aspiration is lighter than Chinese aspiration.

[xiaokaka]

I don't think it is super important to get it exactly right in the beginning and as mentioned before an English ‘b’ will probably not lead to any confusion since Mandarin only has a two way distinction. Other topolects (such as Shanghainese), however, have three way distinctions and differentiate between [pʰ] (= pinyin p), [p] (= pinyin b) and (= English b).

[Michael H]

If you're a native English speaker trying to learn how to make a Chinese `b-' (or a French or Spanish `p'), try this: Tense your vocal cords (i.e. hold your breath), press your lips together, and then rapidly pull them apart, making a popping sound, but keeping your vocal cords tensed so that you don't let a puff of air out. (The `p' in English `spy' is similar but not as strong as it should be.) Another thing you can try is say English "papapapapa...", but try to make the `p' sounds pop more and have less blowing air. Or say English "babababababa...", but stop the vocal cords from vibrating before each `b'.

 

Actually, all the Chinese initials (at least according to the official standard pronounciation as I have learned it) are unvoiced, except for `l-', `m-', `n-',  `r-', `w-', and `y-'. The ones that can be tricky in this respect for native English speakers are `b-', `d-', `g-', `j-', `z-', and `zh-'. Despite misleading descriptions in some books, these are all supposed to be unvoiced! If your language text has an audio recording with people speaking slowly, listen carefully to these sounds.

[wcon]

Thanks to all for taking time to answer my question.  That was helpful and informative.

 

I agree that the voiced / unvoiced distinction probably isn't critical. I wish it were the only problem with my Mandarin pronunciation!  Still, my textbooks advice to avoid making the vocal cords buzz until one's mouth is open didn't make sense to me, and I wanted to understand it.  The cords can only buzz if air is flowing through them.  If air is flowing through and the mouth is closed, then where does the air go?

 

I recorded Altair's suggestions "It's pie" and "Its spy" with Audacity.  The resulting waveform is a good demonstration of the difference between aspirated and non-aspirated unvoiced consonants, and I think it shows me what the Mandarin "b" should sound like.  Then I tried "its buy", but I still didn't see the elusive voiced "b".  Finally, with a little extra effort, I was able to get a voiced "b", letting the air blow up my cheeks before opening my mouth.  Results are attached.

 

 

chineseforums.zip