Why is the word 很 sometimes not translated?

[edelweis]

On the meaning of adjectives with and without 很:
 

形容词作谓语时，前面不需要加“是”，但通常要用并非表示程度高的副词“很”。如果不加“很”，则有比较的意味。

from 国际汉语语法与语法教学 (高等教育出版社), see the preview text in the dangdang page:
http://product.dangdang.com/23340538.html
 

形容词谓语句
...
谓语形容词前常用“很”，这时，“很”表示程度的意义已不明显。如果不加“很”，一般用在有对比意义的句子里。
"Hen" is often used before the adjective, and in such sentences the sense of "Hen" as an indicator of degree has been lost to a large degree. When an adjective appears in predicate position without "Hen", it generally has a comparative sense.
1 今天很冷。
2 办公室很干净。
3 这本书容易，那本书难。
4 我们大使馆中年人多，青年人少。

from my copy of 汉英对照简明汉语语法学习手册 （北京大学出版社）
(hope there are no typos)


See also the discussion of the function of 很 in this paper, page 4:
现代汉语形容词做谓语问题
http://wenku.baidu.com/view/a967a8e981c758f5f61f67b0.html


You can find more with 形容词 and 谓语 as keywords.
 

it looks like the June Chinese Internet Challenge has improved my Chinese searching skills (?)

[L-F-J]

Well, guys, call me stubborn or whatever, but 今天冷 is a simple statement that is perfectly grammatical and indicates absolutely nothing about yesterday or tomorrow being comparatively warm. It just means today is cold. 今天很冷 clearly increases the degree to very cold.

 

What I would like to see is a purely Chinese source for this, not in contrast to English grammar or intended for English speaking learners of Chinese.

 

For what it's worth, I live with a retired Chinese teacher, meaning a teacher of Chinese language to Chinese people, and the answer I get is very clear. It's not extremely rare for textbooks to be wrong, or for linguists to look too deeply into something and come up with some strange phenomenon that just doesn't map to real world usage.

[Guest realmayo]

Would someone just say 今天冷 as a simple statement? I'm probably wrong here, but I can't help feeling that the person you say that to will feel unsatisfied, as if wanting to know, what's your point? What are you trying to say? If you're following it with a 所以, or if you're offering it in explanation of some other fact, fine. But at a simple statement, with no 很, it feels incomplete.

 

I was taught that Chinese, more than English, needs 'pointers' or 'markers' to indicate the speaker's point. My sense is that 很 often serves to tell the listener: what I'm doing is describing this noun, that's it.

 

 

 

Does something like "老王高。" not seem a bit off too?

[L-F-J]

I've come downstairs on a winter morning and been met with an old Chinese man saying 今天冷 as he rubs his arms and stomps his feet to warm up. I didn't expect it to indicate anything else. Why would I? It was indeed cold that day.

 

Things may sound off to you because you're used to hearing something else. That doesn't mean what you are used to hearing is the only correct expression, and what you may not be used to is wrong. There have been countless times where I've heard a usage by a native that I hadn't heard before. I never trust my own limited experience and language sense in a foreign language.

 

老王高 is grammatically correct, but may not be common expression. One may say 老王长得高 or 老王高的. 

 

老王高的还是矮的？老王高的。Nothing wrong with that.

 

But if you say 老王很高 it means he's 很高 not just 高.

[edelweis]

Hm now you're saying that there may be different usages.

So 很 might be reduced to an meaningless connector sometimes and/or in some variants of Mandarin other than the one you're used to.

It does not necessarily always mean "very".

 

My understanding is that the study of Chinese grammar and syntax were not very developed in China.

These fields of study were introduced through contact with foreigners.

Good luck finding a purely Chinese source.

[L-F-J]

 

Hm now you're saying that there may be different usages.

So 很 might be reduced to an meaningless connector sometimes and/or in some variants of Mandarin other than the one you're used to.

It does not necessarily always mean "very".

 

When did I say that? I don't believe that's what's going on in standard Mandarin, and even the Chinese paper you cited said it was just a guess and didn't have enough proof to substantiate it.

 

 

My understanding is that the study of Chinese grammar and syntax were not very developed in China.

These fields of study were introduced through contact with foreigners.

 

All the more reason to pay attention to daily usage and ask native speakers what they actually mean when they say something. If a phenomenon described by a linguist doesn't actually map to real world usage, it doesn't make it true because they guess so. Many have a habit of analysing things too deeply and wandering from real people using the language.

[edelweis]

When did I say that?

here:

There have been countless times where I've heard a usage by a native that I hadn't heard before.

This accounts for :

Hm now you're saying that there may be different usages.

 

 

Unless you have interrogated every Chinese speaker in China, you can't disprove the existence of a specific nuance/usage of 很 in some other area of this vast country.

[L-F-J]

I wasn't talking about a different usage of 很...

 

 

 

Unless you have interrogated every Chinese speaker in China, you can't disprove the existence of a specific nuance/usage of 很 in some other area of this vast country.

 

Sure, but that's quite meaningless, isn't it? Just like I can't disprove universe-creating pixies created the universe. 

 

Where are the examples of real people using 很 like that? The guy that said 今天冷 to me is a counterexample to 很 not being added resulting in it presenting contrast. It can, but that's not absolutely true.

 

Next time you hear a native say someone/something is 很 something (which should be quite often), ask them if that's what they meant. Soon enough you'll have collected enough real-world data to see how 很 is used. I'm gonna say you're unlikely to find people saying 很 and not meaning anything by it.

[edelweis]

I'll readily accept that I'm unlikely to find a native speaker saying 很 and then saying that they did not mean anything by it.

[Guest realmayo]

The guy that said 今天冷 to me

 

... might have been comparing today's cold weather with previous days' milder temperatures

 

 

L-F-J: when you say that 很 always means 'very', I think you are completely wrong. Whether the absence of 很 before a stative verb always implies contrast or not, I'm not sure.

 

Further reading!

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=19478

[L-F-J]

Feel free to think what you want. 

 

In response to your further reading;

 

There's nothing wrong with saying 姐姐漂亮 and there is no implication that 妹妹不漂亮. That's just absurd.

 

If a slightly elder female friend of mine just got her hair done or bought a new dress, I could smile and say 姐姐漂亮 and there'd be nothing odd or wrong with it. There'd also be no 妹妹 to speak of. Even if there were a 妹妹 there with us, she would not feel offended by that.

 

Now 姐姐漂亮 and 姐姐很漂亮 are obviously different statements and shouldn't be translated into the same sentence.

 

There is also nothing wrong with saying 我开心. Non-natives may find it "abrupt almost to the point of being ungrammatical", but Chinese don't. That's the influence of a Westerner's mother language requiring the use of copulas, and so they feel strange as if they're saying "I happy", but since they know it's wrong to add 是, they instead add 很 and assume it doesn't really mean very.

 

But ask native Chinese what they mean when they say 很. Ask them the difference between 姐姐漂亮 and 姐姐很漂亮. I'm willing to bet none will say they are exactly the same. You'll also likely find that 姐姐很漂亮 and 姐姐好漂亮 both equally mean she's very pretty, not that the former just means pretty and the latter means very pretty.

 

No one will say 我开心 and 我很开心 mean the same thing.

 

No one will say 我很开心 just means happy and only 我好开心 means very happy.

[Guest realmayo]

1. If someone just says 我开心 I would assume they're making some kind of point, like, sure I'm happy, what was that made you think I wasn't. Or some other kind of point. But stick that 很 in there and the sentence works find as a standalone, with no other context required or implied.

 

2. "I could smile and say 姐姐漂亮 and there'd be nothing odd or wrong with it." Just guessing here but I my sense is that 姐姐 would be thinking 'what does he mean, what's his point, he must be saying that until now he never thought I was 漂亮, gosh I must normally look very plain'.

 

3. Definitely 我很开心 can mean I'm very happy. But it can also mean I'm happy.

 

 

But ask native Chinese what they mean when they say 很.

 

 

Not normally very helpful. More helpful is to listen to when they say 很 and when they don't. Without a 很, there are extra meanings that attach to the adjective/stative verb, such as comparison. So when you don't use it, unless proper context is given, it sounds odd.

 

 

I dunno, either all these Chinese and Western scholars and teachers have got it completely wrong! Like, lots and lots of them. Or you've got it slightly wrong.

[L-F-J]

 

1. If someone just says 我开心 I would assume they're making some kind of point, like, sure I'm happy, what was that made you think I wasn't. Or some other kind of point. But stick that 很 in there and the sentence works find as a standalone, with no other context required or implied.

 

You'd be assuming too much. 我开心 also works fine as a standalone. Stick 很 in there and it means very happy...

 

 

2. "I could smile and say 姐姐漂亮 and there'd be nothing odd or wrong with it." Just guessing here but I my sense is that 姐姐 would be thinking 'what does he mean, what's his point, he must be saying that until now he never thought I was 漂亮, gosh I must normally look very plain'.

 

Haha, no. There would be absolutely no reason for her to think that. It's just a straightforward compliment.

 

 

3. Definitely 我很开心 can mean I'm very happy. But it can also mean I'm happy.

 

Okay. You say so, but as already established, I don't agree. 

 

 

 

Not normally very helpful. More helpful is to listen to when they say 很 and when they don't. Without a 很, there are extra meanings that attach to the adjective/stative verb, such as comparison. So when you don't use it, unless proper context is given, it sounds odd.

 

So, it's not very helpful to actually ask them what they mean, but instead listen and assume? 

 

Without 很 there are extra meanings that you attach to it if there is no comparison implied. It sounds odd to you for whatever reason, but it's not odd or incorrect.

 

 

 

I dunno, either all these Chinese and Western scholars and teachers have got it completely wrong! Like, lots and lots of them. Or you've got it slightly wrong.

 

As was made clear in one of the links above, they're just guessing and don't have ample proof to substantiate it. And as I've also said, when a linguist comes up with a phenomenon that doesn't actually map to real world usage, it doesn't make them right because they are scholars. They make their living by writing papers, and often times overanalyze in order to come up with something. I prefer to take native speakers at their word for what it is they actually mean when they say something...

[Guest realmayo]

I prefer to take native speakers at their word for what it is they actually mean when they say something...

 

I think that's where you're going wrong!

[BanZhiYun]

Someone here said that Chinese people didn't analyse Chinese grammar before Western people started coming to China? Look out for 马真，陆俭明，朱德熙 and many more people who have done a lot of research on this topic a long time ago. 

很 more often than not has no meaning, but it does have a grammatical role of differating sentence with 很 and without it. When you don't use it, it basically has a comparative feeling to the sentence. 

[imron]

but Chinese don't

I took your advice and asked a native speaker, and a graduate of the Chinese Language at that, and for the examples you provided above without 很 they said 听起来很奇怪，我们不会这么说 and then went on to say they would always add a modifier of degree such as 很、非常、超级、有点 or similar.

They did say however that if asking a question it was ok to leave off the modifier e.g. 你觉得那个人漂亮吗 would be fine, and would convey a slightly different meaning if adding 很, in that it would be an indication that the asker was likely to be expecting the answer to be yes.

[BanZhiYun]

我开心 is obviously different from 我很开心；
Let's say somebody asks you: 你开心吗？
And then you answer: 我开心／我很开心.
我开心 could mean I am happy (but would emphasize on more than before, more than I expected, more than somebody else)
我很开心 just means I am happy. Very  happy? 我非常开心／我十分开心. Whoever was arguing about 很 must mean very, then what would be the difference between 很，十分，非常 be in your opinion？

[L-F-J]

@imron

 

A modifier of degree such as 很 huh? That's right. It's a modifier of degree, not just a dummy word. It never means 是. All of those modifiers have clear meanings they add to the sentence. It may well be usual practice for a native speaker to add these modifiers as a way speaking and not making plain statements. That does not mean they are wrong or odd when used without any. They just prefer to add degree. Without overanalyzing it, I'm sure any native speaker has made a straight compliment such as 姐姐漂亮  before without any modifier of degree. It's common enough. 

 

My go-to native source on questions like this is the retired Chinese teacher I live with. That is, a teacher of Chinese Language to Chinese people. I generally trust her knowledge on the language, but personal experience and actually asking Chinese what they mean when they say 很 tells me it indeed has meaning.

[L-F-J]

@BanZhiYun

 

The various degree modifiers don't necessarily map to a certain word in English. You could translate them all as "very", if you wanted to. But to show the difference in degree, I'd say;

 

1) 很 = very

2) 好 = very (same degree as 很)

3) 非常 = extraordinarily / exceptionally

4) 十分 = extremely / utterly / absolutely

 

3 & 4 are almost literal. 非常 literally means unusually, and 十分 literally means 100%, 10 out of 10, completely.

 

姐姐漂亮 = Big sis is pretty.

姐姐很漂亮 = Big sis is very pretty.

[L-F-J]

 

 

I think that's where you're going wrong! 

 

Really? You think it's a bad idea to ask people what they actually mean when they say something, rather than just make assumptions? How bizarre...