New Translation of 紅樓夢 Hong Lou Meng

[StChris]

I'm currently half way through volume 2 of the Hawkes edition and I don't think the language sounds dated at all. I'm particularly impressed with how he makes the poems work in English. The only bits I've found a little cringe-worthy are the sex scenes (I remember reading something like: "she attempted to stop him, but the ship had already docked at the port").

[StChris]

Speaking of Jin Ping Mei, I heard that the "rude" parts were translated into Latin instead of English to prevent the servants from reading them. Is this still the case?

[mandel1luke]

The Roy translation is completely unexpurgated. Clement Egerton's earlier version has the "rude" parts translated into Latin though.

 

And yes, I too am very impressed with how Hawkes gets all the poems to rhyme and yet strays scarcely in meaning from the original. I cannot imagine anyone doing the poems better. 

[Benjamin Smith]

I'm more than a little surprised by how many people feel so strongly opposed to the presence of a lot of slangy or vulgar expressions in the translation. The fact that the HLM was written as a vernacular novel at a time when the vast majority of literature wasn't puts it closer to a Trainspotting than a Jane Eyre, and as I've said the original is FILLED with words that I wouldn't use in a public space. Mandel1luke said the novel is a monument, and I feel that while this is true treating it as such is a mistake; I probably went overboard with the slang in order to cultivate the casual, conversational style that the Cao Xueqin generally offers, but if so many of you insist that swear words have no place in book with so many 肏s and 雞巴s then I doubt we'll ever reach an agreement as to how the book can be best translated. That said, I find the fact that so many people feel this way interesting, and I'll definitely take it under consideration. I'm really glad for all the feedback I'm getting here.

 

I thought the WHAM part was pretty clever actually and a nice reference to all the onomatopoeic words that have to be left out because they just don't work in English as well, but I can see that it's inclusion was probably a mistake. And I'm glad to learn the difference between 'loath' and 'loathe', because that's a new one for me. 

[Zeppa]

A footnote: I was about to post in reply to what Shelley wrote that I do not believe slang is out of place in principle. That is, I cannot read the original, my Chinese isn't up to that level, but I simply assumed that the original contained a lot of slang.

My reaction to the translation here was based solely on the way it reads for me as a piece of literature in English.

[陳德聰]

The original contains "colloquialisms" for sure, but just because it was written in the vernacular doesn't mean it should be riddled with slang where there isn't slang in the original. For example, "Even the servant girls in those stories speak like Confucius. Ugh." <- When did our dear stone start speaking like a teenage brat?

 

And I am not opposed to swearing, I just think it has its place. For example, I wouldn't call 荒唐言 "bullshit", because the two evoke such wildly different feelings, bullshit is so aggressive compared so "nonsense" or "gibberish" or "blather" or something of the like.

 

Then... For some reason you translated "恕诓驾之罪" as "Shit, I'm terribly sorry about this" when it's clear that the original is much closer to "Forgive me", with no expletive in sight. It's not so much that I don't like the word "shit", in fact I use it often. But there is some degree of faithfulness I would hope to have from a translation that your version seems to be lacking. I don't want to be discouraging but it reads more like a misinterpretation than a twist of style.

[Shelley]

Yes I agree with you 陳德聰. I have nothing against swearing when appropriate. It may seem that "Shit, I'm terribly sorry about this" does not carry the weight that it does for other people because you have become use to using it even when the situation doesn't really warrant it.

 

Overuse of cursing devalues it.

 

By all means lighten up the language, try and bring a modern twist to it but use slang and swearing frugally and then when used it will have the impact it is supposed to engender.

 

One positive thing to come out of this discussion is I have decided to try reading the Bencroft Joly version.

[Guest realmayo]

Speaking of Jin Ping Mei, I heard that the "rude" parts were translated into Latin instead of English to prevent the servants from reading them. Is this still the case?

 

In the reprinted Roy edition I have, those parts have been translated back into English (in slightly different typeface).

[mandel1luke]

I agree with 陳德聰 too. Colloquialism is different from slang. Sure, phrases like 肏 and 雞巴 are definitely vulgar but such expletives are only found in speeches of certain characters. Some of the language Wang Xifeng, Jia Lian, Xue Pan and (especially) Tealeaf use I admit is rather vulgar and slangy. However, Zhen Shiyin's speech definitely is not - he speaks more like a country gentleman. In fact, 恕诓驾之罪 is rather formal and courteous, so I can't understand the rationale of translating it as "Shit! I'm terribly sorry about this".

 

 

Actually when I first saw this topic I thought it was about the newly discovered translation of Hong Lou Meng by Lin Yutang.