Middle Chinese - Tones

[WKC]

Hi,

 

I just wanted to check that I understand Middle Chinese tones.  The Middle Chinese four tones in sequence are:

1st Tone - 平声, 

2nd Tone - 上声, 

3rd Tone - 去声,

4th Tone - 入声.

 

 

Was there a 5th  tone - 轻声?

 

Many thanks.

[Hofmann]

No. You're welcome.

[WKC]

Many ancient Chinese texts refer to 五聲.  e.g. "五聲、六律、十二管” in 禮記. 

 

What would 五聲 relate to?

[OneEye]

Music. 5 tones/notes, or the pentatonic scale.

[WKC]

I understood the pentatonic scale to be五音.  I’m surprised that they would use both 五音 and 五聲 to refer to the pentatonic scale.

[OneEye]

Who used both words to refer to the pentatonic scale? "The Chinese?"

 

Chinese is a vast language with a very long history and billions of users over the course of that history. Words change meanings over time, as in any language, multiple words are used to refer to the same concept, as in any language, and different people use the language in different ways, as in any language. In the same way, the Western chromatic scale can be referred to as "chromatic," "12-tone," "dodecaphonic," etc.

 

Much more surprising would be if there were one and only one way to refer to the pentatonic scale in the history of the Chinese language.

[XiaoXi]

The 'middle' tones? What exactly are you referring to? Don't get this thread at all.

[Guest realmayo]

Middle Chinese, not Middle Tones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Chinese

[WKC]

I find it interesting that pre-Han texts mention 五聲, but 四聲 is mention only in post-Han texts.  

 

I remain unconvinced that 五聲 relates to the pentatonic scale.  

[OneEye]

You're getting confused. The 禮記, a Zhou (1046-256 BC) text, couldn't possibly be referring to Middle Chinese (which starts around 601 AD) tones/phonology. Tones didn't even come about in the Chinese language until after the Han dynasty. Have you even read the passage you're referring to? "五聲、六律、十二管，還相為宮也" is talking about music. 律 and 管 refer to bamboo pipe instruments, and 宮 is the name of the first note of the pentatonic scale. So what could it be referring to other than musical tones?

 

You don't have to believe me on that (the info is easy enough to find), but you'll have a hard time making a case to the contrary.

[WKC]

Yes.  Confusion abounds .

 

http://www.pinyin.info/

[Hofmann]

Just one dude AFAIK.

 

OK you're not the only one. More often than not around here (Utah Chinese teachers), when people say 四聲 they're talking about Mandarin tones. Even in some textbooks.

[OneEye]

Yes.  Confusion abounds .

 

http://www.pinyin.info/

 

So do cryptic posts, apparently.

[WKC]

It is just not possible to explain in one post or ten.  You either understand or you do not.  Lu Xun skirts the topic in menwai wentan and other writings such as kuángrén rìjì.

 

Some people will understand if I were to say, "wo de nainai jiao wo du fenghuang".  Yue ri?

[OneEye]

I'm not going to waste my time trying to decipher your posts if you're not willing to communicate clearly.

 

Good luck.