SRS just doesn't work (for me)

[Hopelessatlanguages]

I suspect there has been a lot of discussion of this but I'm new to the forum and can't find my way about. I've been learning Chinese for several years now studying 2-3 hours a day. I think it is one of the most frustrating learning experiences I've ever had. I still have absolutely no idea what is a good way to study, and I have tried many. I think words and characters are the most difficult things about learning Chinese. I just finished my daily hour with Skritter. I've studied 507 characters over two years of which I can remember less than half. They all look familiar but I just can't remember what they mean when I meet them.  I've used all the standard SRS apps and their ‘algorithms’ bear absolutely no relationship with the way I memorise. I’ve got one which asks me to decide if I think I will know the word tomorrow. No, let’s get this right. That’s its default. It asks me to register if I think I will NOT know the word tomorrow. You probably know which one I mean because it is very famous. Well, I’ve got the EBB curve in front of me and that represents how my brain works. First time round, I need to review after 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 1 hour, 9 hours. Tomorrow is far too late. I still think Skritter is good, but again its algorithm has not the slightest relationship to my learning pattern. To start with, I need much more repetition at the start of memorising a character than it allows me, repeating it often over a week. Now I’m looking at a character which I know I’m always forgetting and it says I have 1 month to wait before it reappears in the programme. Hopeless. Spaced repetition would be a great concept IF ONLY IT WORKED.

 

Am I alone? What do other people do?

[edelweis]

Some people like learning the character *before* putting it in the srs deck, which they use for review and not for learning,

and some people like using srs software with adjustable delays.

On the other hand there are tricks to learning characters such as:

- learning characters as a combination of components, not a combination of strokes.

- learning the words that use those characters.

- reading texts that use those words.

- writing sentences using those words.

- learning more characters that combine components which you already learnt. Actually the first 500 are perhaps the hardest to learn, but the more you learn, the easier it gets - because of semantic and phonetic components which you already know...

In summary, perhaps don't rely on srs alone to learn characters...

[Flickserve]

The same happens to me!

Like anything, there is variable effectiveness of any teaching aid.

I have kept a list of the vocab and sometimes I do some reading of that. Otherwise, I have been having lessons and then repeating the lesson with the teacher. Ok. It sounds like a waste of time but this really seemed to help quite a bit in being familiar with the vocabulary.

For learning words recognition, karaoke is the way to go! It is a marvellous way to keep up with frequently repeating words. You won't learn every word but your pattern recognition should improve a fair bit. Whether your singing improves might be debatable.

I think I can do better though. I have the list of vocab that has come up in previous lessons and then reviewing the lesson and using the words in different sentences with the teacher. I wasn't able to do this before as I felt I lacked a critical threshold of vocab for sentence making.

I also made some friends from China on wechat. I sometimes write in Chinese adding in some words from the dictionary. That helps a little.

[li3wei1]

First time round, I need to review after 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 1 hour, 9 hours.

 

Okay, do that, with paper and pen, for some manageable number of characters (probably 3-5). Then add them to your stack. Then do another batch the next day, and the next.  SRS is for remembering what you've already learned, not for learning the first time. Also, the characters you're learning should be from whatever textbook you're using, so you have seen them in context and will continue to see them in context frequently.

[Michael H]

You said that you study 2-3 hours a day, and of that you spend 1 hour using Skritter. That seems like a disproportionately large amount of time to be spending with Skritter! I think Skritter is a great product, but I would suggest spending more study time reading instead; you'll review many more characters this way, and it is more fun. If you only know a few hundred characters so far then read graded readers like Chinese Breeze etc. For me, Skritter is great if you want to review a specific list of characters (use the "Study List" feature), or if you have a couple of minutes, say, waiting for a bus and want to make use of that time for a bit of studying.

[vellocet]

SRS was very useful for me to put characters I learned into long-term memory where I never forget them.  Anki is utterly ruthless, however, and will crush you with a backlog of cards if you ever do anything crazy like go on vacation for a week.  It's a problem that I've raised but nobody wants to fix it as they say that's how SRS is supposed to work.  I think there's a middle ground but evidently I'll have to start my own software company to get it implemented.

[eion_padraig]

I would second what Michael H said about graded readers.The first level requires you to know about 300 words. Reading in the context of a story might help you lock in the words.

 

I found Skritter stopped being helpful as a way to learn new words once I started encountering words that I didn't use in my conversations or see in my reading. It was still a decent way to review words for me though.

[Shelley]

Skritter is really good as an extra for learning characters. I had a 3 months summer of skritter last year and was able to really give it a good try.

 

An hour a day with skritter seems like a long time, my sessions were 15 - 20 minutes long. I would rather spend that time on some other aspect of studying.

 

I have never come across the being asked to say if I will know it in the future thing, I have to say it sounds weird.

 

The actual Skritter app/web version is beautifully designed and looks great, the algorithms for SRS are pretty standard and work well.

 

I found it was helpful for learning characters but not helpful for memorising and actually writing them on paper with a pen. Using your finger or a mouse is a different set of muscles to using a pen on paper. There is a lot to be said for training your muscles as well as your brain.

 

I had to back up Skritter with lots of other practise.

 

I always use Hanzi Grids for each lesson's new characters/words and spend the time writing them over and over again, I don't think there is any other way to get them in the brain. All the characters I have written more times than I can count ( well quite a few times) I can remember and write from memory, some I can recognise and understand but can't write from memory, these the ones that just go blank sometimes, I see it and know I should know it but there is nothing.

 

I use this as a way to determine that character needs more work, any time I come across a "blank" that I know I should know it goes back on the to learn list, my own version of SRS.

 

SRS is designed to help you but it is not the only thing to rely on, I use Pleco flashcards and do reviews as well as SRS.

 

I also use actual old fashion paper flashcards to give another dimension to my learning, I think this is the key, lots of exposure to characters and lots of writing.

 

I think you need to not rely on apps and SRS so much and get down to some real writing with pen and paper. Remember to use the correct stroke order as this helps with the muscle and brain training , Pleco has a stroke order addon that I use for this. You are not doing it to be good at calligraphy so you don't need to produce perfect characters only correct and consistent.

 

Personally I really enjoy spending time writing, not everyone does though but it is good practise.

 

Also remember not to learn characters in isolation, try and learn words too. This helps a lot when you come across things in the "wild"

 

I hope this encourages you to take up pen and paper and start writing. Try Hanzi Grids, you can use it for free but to get all the functions it is only a very small cost to get the full version      http://www.hanzigrids.com/

[偉爾豆仁]

Well, here's a question: How do you use Chinese in your everyday life? This is what ultimately determines how well someone will learn the language. Studying just the characters is nice, but how often do you think and use Chinese outside of your allotted 2-3 hours of study time? 

 

Have you changed your phone's language to Chinese yet? How about your e-mail and facebook? I would switch your computer's language to Mandarin as well. It doesn't matter if you don't understand everything, you'll get used to it much more easily than you'd think. Start browsing online 漫画 (manga) sites and see if you can follow the story. Since those are basically comic books, even if you can't understand all of the words you can still follow the story most of the time. 

 

Beginning readers are also a good place to start. Maybe watch a favorite pixar movie that's been dubbed in Mandarin. They're pretty easy to find online and the dubs are quite good. Also, since there are almost always Chinese subtitles, you can practice your reading a little bit while you're having fun watching the movie. Watch like a little kid would. Most kids don't understand all of the dialogue and stories of Star Wars when they're little but they still love the movies. We can do the same thing as adults!

 

In this environment of creating as many opportunities for yourself to come in contact with Chinese as possible, SRS does wonders! As others have said, a SRS is a tool to help you remember, not to learn. If you have constant reminders of the meaning of Chinese characters every time you send an email or check your Facebook, you'll progress very quickly and be less likely to forget. 

 

This isn't to say SRS is for everyone, but I'd say for the vast majority of people it is a wonderful tool that has helped me a lot and continues to do so (for Chinese and Spanish). 

[davoosh]

I made a thread about this a couple of months ago. Basically I came to the conclusion that regular consumption of real-life material was more beneficial than SRS programs. I'm not sure what your level is, but if you can read books (even simple ones), you'll have a natural form of SRS. If there are words which you notice yourself continuously forgetting, then I would put some in an SRS programme.

 

Personally, I've found reading native materials helps me remember better as I can place the new words in a context attached to events (even if they are fictional). I've found that I also remember words better when I am placed within the event or context, for example, if I need to describe an item in a supermarket and have to then use that vocab, I probably won't be forgetting that word any time soon.

 

I think SRS has its uses - I use it sometimes if I need to learn a connected group of words that I know I'll be using, but otherwise I mainly focus on native material and maybe select some common words that I keep forgetting, and input those into the SRS.

[eliaso]

I also think that Skritter has a terrible algorithm but unfortunately there is nothing better available. Not to mention how expensive it is. When it comes to learning new words, you can actually use Skritter´s scratchpad mode. That way you can manually type in new words that you want to grind over and over again. Sometimes I have to cram between 50-200 new words to my head because of an exam and find scratchpad perfect for it. However, don´t expect that stuff to stay in your long term memory unless you encounter those words again in a natural context. Many people have given good advice already. Here´s my suggestions:

 

- use Skritter´s scratchpad for new words you want to learn, only after you get them right add them into your normal routine

- try to stay "conscious" when practicing with Skritter - it´s very easy to space out with it. If you study a long time everyday then take breaks or even better, divide your sessions to happen 2-3 times a day.

- I often made up "stories" for characters/words when I was in the stage of knowing less than 500 words. I still sometimes do. Dirtier the story, seems to work better for me As said, the more you learn characters and words the easier it gets and you start thinking of characters more from the angle of what kind of strokes etc. they are made of

- don´t forget old school paper and pen

- get a textbook or at least some reading material if you already don´t have any. Skritter is just a sumplement, your main study should happen from other sources

- don´t worry, don´t get frustrated, just stay humble and keep on going. Chinese IS hard but as long as you make progress, you are moving to the right direction

[XiaoXi]

Have you changed your phone's language to Chinese yet? How about your e-mail and facebook? I would switch your computer's language to Mandarin as well. It doesn't matter if you don't understand everything, you'll get used to it much more easily than you'd think.

 

Yes that's the first step for sure. I'm sure there's almost no one here on the forum who doesn't have their computer, phone etc all in Chinese. I have my gmail, my computer, my iPad, iPhone etc all in Chinese. You get to a point with a lot of things that when you think of them, even when trying to speak or write in English, the _first_ word that enters your head is the Chinese and maybe sometimes you can't even think of the English word for it for a while.

[Shelley]

I'm sure there's almost no one here on the forum who doesn't have their computer, phone etc all in Chinese.

 

Not me, a combination of it being difficult enough to get around on my PC in English sometimes, Photo shop, excel, and word would be a nightmare in Chinese for me. and I use my computer for work so I need to get things right and I haven't got time for working it all out.

 

I think that it would only be an option if I was near fluent and/or living in china.

[Hopelessatlanguages]

Thanks folks, I'm overwhelmed by all your responses! So SRS is great for remembering words you already know, but not for memorising words you don't know. I had sort of come to that conclusion but lacked the confidence to carry it through. I am actually at Ch. 27 of Tuttle 'Learning Chinese Characters' so I do know a lot of radicals, but it is the Skritter algorithm that has actually slowed down my retention rate. Watching the rising number of reviews due acts as a sort of mind control-emotional blackmail-and Scratchpad doesn't reduce them. Vellocet, are you serious about developing some software? I have looked for an app where I can set and control the algorithm but haven't found one yet. I think  I'll go on using Skritter but in a different way, and move over to Chinese breeze. Probably more fun in any case.

[imron]

I have looked for an app where I can set and control the algorithm but haven't found one yet

Have a look at Pleco, including the paid flashcard module.

 

It has a load of options and configurations that should do what you want.  For my purposes, in addition to revision and pronunciation profiles, I have a profile specifically for new cards, which only has a 'front' side, and that I use for learning the card once it's been added.

 

They also have a bunch of options for revision that are not SRS (e.g. straight drilling, random drilling etc), and options for dealing with late revisions and so on.

[DachZanz]

I've used Anki for one year (at 93% study rate)... I recommend it completely.  I use it for about 17-20 minutes every day and have a lot of decks all about Chinese.  I really think I've improved a lot from it.  

 

Most of my cards are words from my textbooks or things that I've learned from tutors.  I have one or two decks that I've got which are new content, but I only learn 1-2 new things a day from them.  I otherwise don't have problems with the default settings.

 

Here are my stats, if anyone cares to see.  

 

http://imgur.com/mjfTByq

 

One thing to note is the 100% accuracy... That's usually not how it goes.  It's just that instead of choosing the ">1m" option, I pick the ">10m" option, and I'll sit at the card and make a mnemonic or something at that point.  I usually have more wrong than that, maybe it was just an easy day.

 

I also use Skritter, but only have the free version of Pleco.  

[XiaoXi]

Not me, a combination of it being difficult enough to get around on my PC in English sometimes, Photo shop, excel, and word would be a nightmare in Chinese for me. and I use my computer for work so I need to get things right and I haven't got time for working it all out.

 

I think that it would only be an option if I was near fluent and/or living in china.

 

Not everything changes into Chinese it seems, my photoshop is still in English. It depends what language you select upon installation. It is confusing at first but then so is anything in a different language, and in fact so is learning a language itself. It all takes time to get used to. Its all about getting out of your comfort zone really. Also like you say, you need time to learn a language.

[abcdefg]

@Hopeless -- For a long time (several years) I always used ZDT first with new vocabulary. Once the new material was fairly well mastered, I loaded it into Anki. I visualized, rightly or wrongly, as one tool being better for short-term cramming and the other tool being better to ensure long-term retention. You might want to have a look at it as one option.

 

This project might be more feasible than you originally thought.