How did you get good at grammar?

[wulfgar]

I'm doing a learning spurt, 3-5 hrs/day, with the intention of getting from a solid B1 to a solid B2. I'm hoping this will take me about 6 months, but will accept it if it takes longer. I've been studying Mandarin since 2007, sporadically. My pronunciation is good and conversation is fairly fluid, but I lack the vocabulary to be B2. So I'm conversing an hour per day, taking notes and studying the vocabulary. Without a doubt my vocabulary will vastly improve in a few months. I also read, watch TV shows and write daily. But my worries are about grammar.

 

Until this spurt started, I never studied Mandarin grammar. Low level Mandarin grammar was very easy for me to pick up, so I never needed to worry about it. But now I'm working my way through some grammars, and realizing the upper level stuff is much less intuitive. I finished Schuam's, and am about a week away from finishing Yufa. Even though I'm doing all the exercises, and hand writing the answers, the grammar still isn't sticking very well. I know that getting grammar to stick is much more dependent on usage than study, but I feel results should be better than what I'm experiencing, so I'm asking for your experiences.

 

For you advanced learners, how did you assimilate grammar? What I'm hoping for here is something like "I studied book x and book y, and talked to native speakers daily" or "I studied Glossika for 1 year and all my grammar problems went away", or some other brief formulaic description. But feel free to write what you want - I'm interested in your grammar success story.

[edelweis]

Sorry, I'm not very good at grammar, and I think that's because when I do study it it's the way you described - reading a textbook and doing the exercises. That's not enough for me - the next day I've forgotten everything.

I'm told I should make my own sentences using the grammar rules I have learned, and get a teacher to correct them.

Conversation does not seem to be enough unless maybe you really make an effort to use the new rules and patterns, and trust your partner to correct you.

I guess the ideal would be a private teacher who knows what your level is, and drills you, and forces you to use the harder stuff rather than the simpler sentences.

edit after reading LFJ's post below : I assumed you want to get good at expressing yourself in more complex Chinese using correct grammar, not merely being able to understand other people or read native content.

[L-F-J]

Reading lots of literature.

 

That is, observing all sorts of grammar patterns in use by skilful writers in their native language, from the most basic to advanced constructions. At first, some patterns will be difficult to wrap your head around, but the more you read, the more things begin to click.

 

The only grammar I've ever "studied" was from the Yip & Rimmington books Chinese: An Essential Grammar, and Intermediate Chinese: A Grammar and Workbook.

 

They also have a basic one, but I was beyond that level before I came across their books. Apart from that, I just read novels.

 

Edit: I should also note, I made a deliberate attempt to learn all the structural patterns I could (e.g. 既然...所以; 虽然...但是; etc.) so that once you nail all those down, you have an outline for your sentences, and from there it's just a matter of filling it in with vocabulary. Many of those structural patterns are introduced in the books I've named above.

[XiaoXi]

Just ask yourself how you got such a high level of grammar in your native language. Simple, just read and listen a lot. If you need higher level grammar then read and listen to more complex material.

[Tianjin42]

I understand how frustrating it can be. Whilst I wouldn't consider myself an expert, my grammar is okay.

It's important to remember not only that different people benefit from different techniques but also that individuals benefit from different techniques at different stages. I certainly needed to know when to push things, when to ease off, when to focus on grammar in a book, and when to stop that and spend months conversing with natives.

In my experience, in terms of your particular issue, the technique that benefited me was to study grammar intensively from a textbook and then converse extensively so that I would identify some of what I had learned from the book. I would try to use some of these rules I had learned when replying and it slowly built up.

Above all it required a patience and determination as there were plenty of days when I felt it was going backwards.

In terms of a textbook, I would recommend 'Practicing HSK Grammar' by Sinolingua.

[Shelley]

Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar by Claudia Ross and Jingheng Sheng Ma is quite popular but I didn't get on with it. I prefer schaums Outline Chinese Grammar for the reasons I gave in a little review I did here http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46180-intermediate-chinese-grammar-online-edx-course/page-5

at post#84.

 

Which is also good topic about the edx course Intermediate Chinese grammar course which I believe is starting again. I found it helpful but it was a bit difficult for me to keep up with for various personal reasons.

 

Here is a link to the course which started Sept. 15 but you can still enrol as it is self paced.https://www.edx.org/course/zhong-ji-yi-yu-yu-fa-intermediate-pekingx-20000001x

 

I don't think there is any kind of a quick fix to learning grammar but I do think it is important to find the best way for you and then put in the work.

 

 

 

 

[chocolatemilk]

Learning a language is just finding the best way to plagiarize others.

 

Find a sentence that somebody else wrote.  Figure out what the sentence means.  Copy it. This method works until you are at an advanced level.  

 

This line of thinking can be useful for many grammar constructions.

 

I want to buy a peach. > I want to buy an apple.  

I want to buy three apples. > I want to buy 4 apples.

I want to sell four apples. > I want to sell 5 apples.

I want to look at seven apples. >  I want to look at seven peaches.

I want to look at the TV.  > I want to look at the peach.

I want to look at the big TV. > I want to buy the big apple.  

I decided not to buy the apple. > I decided not to buy the peach.

There are no apples left. >  There are no peaches in the store.

 

Start simple and then try and change a little bit at a time and then have people correct your sentences.  You never need to do to much at one time when learning.

[Mouseneb]

I taught English in China for several years, so I had a lot of exposure to my students' poor English grammar. I noticed the most common grammar errors and knew that must be because they were using Chinese grammar patterns instead of English. So I just copied their way of speaking. Plus tons of reading and listening to native Chinese.

[Guest realmayo]

Textbooks! They can be pretty useful things. Typically each chapter will have a text which includes grammar patterns that are explained after the text. Any of those patterns that you don't know 100%, you can work on, do the exercises, use google to find examples in the wild, prepare a few sentences using those patterns.

 

Sure, you can find grammar in novels and magazines and on the TV. But textbooks force you to deal with material you're not 100% sure of. If you see some grammar construction in a novel, you'll probably be telling yourself, 'it's unrealistic to expect that I understand everything in this native material, and okay here's a grammar construction which I've seen before and kinda understand roughly what it does, so I'll move on to the next sentence.'

 

At least, that was my experience. A couple of months ago I studied from a textbook in class for the first time in years. There were so many bits of grammar, linking words, usages and so on, all of which I must have come across before, but many of which I kinda understood. In the past when I came across them they were like boggy ground, I could get across, but it slowed me down, put me off.

 

Since putting in the work, the opposite: the function of grammar is to help native speakers understand what's being said. And fully understanding grammar points means you read them the way they're meant to be used: they're not just no longer an obstacle, instead now they actually speed up your reading, because they're doing their job, which is to signpost you though the text in the direction the writer wants you to go.

 

Sure gradually over time and so on you'll pick these things up by reading novels and magazines. But I found it much quicker and effective to use textbooks for this. When I went back to reading native material I was genuinely surprised how much easier (though still not easy!) I found it.

[wulfgar]

 

 

I assumed you want to get good at expressing yourself in more complex Chinese using correct grammar, not merely being able to understand other people or read native content.

Yes, I want to express myself better than I am now. Understanding one-on-one conversation is rarely a problem, and if it is it's almost always due to unknown vocabulary. However, reading native content is sometimes a problem due to grammar. Finally, understanding natives talking to eachother, understanding TV and movies at a decent level are a problem, but this is something that doesn't get fixed at B2 in my experience, and I'm not going after the higher levels at this point.

 

 

 

I made a deliberate attempt to learn all the structural patterns I could (e.g. 既然...所以; 虽然...但是; etc.) so that once you nail all those down, you have an outline for your sentences, and from there it's just a matter of filling it in with vocabulary. Many of those structural patterns are introduced in the books I've named above.

Thanks. I have Yip sitting on my shelf. Maybe I'll do that next.

 

 

 

Just ask yourself how you got such a high level of grammar in your native language. Simple, just read and listen a lot. If you need higher level grammar then read and listen to more complex material.

Although I do this in all my languages, this isn't enough when it comes to grammar.

 

 

 

I would recommend 'Practicing HSK Grammar'

Thanks - I'll check that out

 

 

 

the edx course Intermediate Chinese grammar course

whoops - wish I'd have known about that sooner, hehe

 

 

 

Textbooks!

Which ones did you use?

[Guest realmayo]

Textbook was 思想與社會. Pasting a few of the things I mean:

 

仅仅...而已，所以然，何况，就算是，从...着眼，而...为主，应A而B，以至于

纵使...也...，与其...不如，流于，一V再V，...也好...也好,都，由...而...，进而

未必，况且，以...来论，像...一般，势必，相对地，通过，因而，借

 

 

To be able to change from seeing something like that and thinking "grrr, one of those annoying words again, I think I understand though" to thinking "excellent, that word helps me understand what the writer's trying to say" -- it made a big difference to my confidence reading.

 

Any decent textbook -- I'm sure there are lots -- that contains plenty of similar things at the appropriate level, can help you achieve in two months what might take ages and ages if reading novels alone. (Of course, reading novels will help you in other important ways that textbooks won't, it's not an either/or.)

 

Edit: this might be an individual thing. But coming across new patterns in a text, even if it's a textbook text, and working through that text to understand it all 100%, is I think for me an easier way to 'get' grammar than just to read through a grammar book. I think that's because from very early on, large chunks of Chinese grammar are actually all about learning and remembering the special usages that apply to certain words and phrases.

[Shelley]

 

 

the edx course Intermediate Chinese grammar course

whoops - wish I'd have known about that sooner, hehe

 

 

 

 

Its still not too late, have a look.

[Flickserve]

I have been meaning to get a grammar book myself but haven't pressed the to buy function.

I just last week went to http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/

I just look up something for the day. It is actually quite convenient to look up on a large smartphone, say if you are waiting for a train or in the tea room.

[wulfgar]

 

 

Edit: this might be an individual thing. But coming across new patterns in a text, even if it's a textbook text, and working through that text to understand it all 100%, is I think for me an easier way to 'get' grammar than just to read through a grammar book.

I completely agree. It's like I get really motivated to learn the specific grammar point(s) so I can finally understand the frikken sentence . So why am I working through grammars systematically? First of all to feel like I have somewhat of a concept of what the big picture is, what's possible in the language, a "getting my hands around it" sort of feel ing that I've never had with Mandarin. Also, I like organization, and systematically working through a whole grammar appeals to me on a higher level. But now it might be time to step back and focus on/master specific points. Thanks for the text book recommendation btw.

 

 

 

Its still not too late, have a look.

 

I registered for it, since it's free, and have been looking through it. Seems like a nice little course. I need to finish Yufa (8 more lessons) before I do anything else, so if I decide to do it I'll be about 2 weeks behind. It's a self paced 13 week course which is supposed to take 6 hrs/week, so if I do it over 11 weeks I'll just have to up it to 7 hrs/week. Sounds reasonable; I might do it. The first video and first week's homework seem pretty straight forward. Did you say there's a thread on this? I'll have to check it out, because researching study is even funner than studying.

 

 

 

I just last week went to http://resources.all...hinese/grammar/

Yeah, that's an excellent resource. It's not something that I feel I can systematically study, but it will be great when I get stuck on something.