learning chinese - stuck

[xtenhome]

Ranting.

have been sort of learning chinese on my own for the past three years.

I can converse entirely in chinese, understand most conversational chinese if it does not concern specialised subjects. Understand chinese movies, radio. Read a little.

But feel stuck in a rut. I stll cannot speak enough to be fluent. Fluent is speak well enough that people cant tell the difference from local chinese. That is speak as well as a local. Idioms, phrases, not necessarily slang.

When I speak more than a few minutes they can usually tell I am not local. They usually think Taiwan or Hong Kong.

Is really frustrating I am making no progress that I can see on speech patterns. Also as far as I can tell my pronunciation is good. But locals mostly can tell that the accent is not local. My grammer is also sometimes wrong as I use english patterns of speech. That I can probably correct.

How can I improve ? Is soooooooooooo frustrating.

[Harpoon]

huh? what ethnicity are you? that sounds pretty good that they can mistake you for a Hong Kong-er or Taiwanese instead of just a straight-up laowai :o

and what do you mean "local chinese"? Mainland chinese differ just as much as HK and TW... are you trying to copy the Beijing dialect or something?

[wai ming]

Ranting.

have been sort of learning chinese on my own for the past three years.

I can converse entirely in chinese' date=' understand most conversational chinese if it does not concern specialised subjects. Understand chinese movies, radio. Read a little.

But feel stuck in a rut. I stll cannot speak enough to be fluent. Fluent is speak well enough that people cant tell the difference from local chinese. That is speak as well as a local. Idioms, phrases, not necessarily slang.

When I speak more than a few minutes they can usually tell I am not local. They usually think Taiwan or Hong Kong.

Is really frustrating I am making no progress that I can see on speech patterns. Also as far as I can tell my pronunciation is good. But locals mostly can tell that the accent is not local. My grammer is also sometimes wrong as I use english patterns of speech. That I can probably correct.

How can I improve ? Is soooooooooooo frustrating.[/quote']

Heh, I'm stuck in a slightly different rut to you.

On a good day, I can speak well enough that people think I'm fluent/native (although it sounds like my fluency level is probably about the same as yours), and then they start speaking really fast and use words I'm not familiar with, and expect me to understand.

On a bad day, when my lack of practice is showing, I get my tones mixed up, and sometimes I reverse phrases (细详 instead of 详细, 画图 instead of 图画 ).

Wish I could improve too...

Back to your frustration, the reason I can think of that they mistake you for HK/Taiwanese is maybe your s/sh, z/zh, c/ch pronunciation. I tend to pronounce zh the same as z and ch the same as c, and thus I get told I have a "southern accent". In my honest opinion, I wouldn't mind being told I sound like a Taiwanese, although I'd prefer not to be told I sound like a HK person (just my personal bias against Cantonese speakers speaking bad Mandarin - but please no-one be offended, certainly some HKers speak very very good Mandarin, and I'm originally Cantonese anyway )

[xtenhome]

I am actually chinese from singapore.

I can usually understand most of what is said as long as it is not a specialised subject.

Even if it is spoken fast.

The problem are the phrases the local chinese use. I want to be able to speak just like them.

Which means I think I need to use the same way of phrasing. My intonation I think is OK. I actually never studied the tones. I still have not studied tones. I have just heard mandarin all my life so I just learn the way a word sounds and duplicate it. I am wondering if I need to study tones. Although I dont think that is the problem. No one has ever commented on my tones.

I feel like I am not improving. It is actually quite funny. When I speak in mandarin I dont think in english at all. Unless there is an idea I want to express which I dont know the mandarin version.

I need learn idioms, proverbs, measure words. I never studied grammer somehow the grammer came. But since I never studied grammer I am not sure when something is grammatical or not. I just know that is the way a sentence is spoken. I tried looking at a grammer book but it seemed very confusing.

Right now I am working on listening to chinese movies, TV, radio.

Working on business vocabulary. And trying to learn a few characters every day.

maybe about one hour a day overall.

[gato]

have been sort of learning chinese on my own for the past three years.

I can converse entirely in chinese' date=' understand most conversational chinese if it does not concern specialised subjects. Understand chinese movies, radio. Read a little.[/quote']To get to the next level, I think you need to read a lot more, instead of just a little. It depends on your goals whether you want to put in that effort. What do you want to do with your Chinese?

[xtenhome]

I want to do business in china.

So I really want to become like a local mainland chinese in speech. Understand the business environment. I do not think I need to write. I have been in Shanghai for the past year. So it is frustrating that with immersion in China I feel that my improvement is not as great as I want it to be.

This is the step beyond casual conversation. My original idea was to watch movies, listen to radio to improve. I wanted an easy way to improve. Writing chracters over and over was boring. So I started using QQ which is what all the chinese use to chat. Within a few months I found I began to recognise quite a few characters and without much effort since chatting with girls is fun. I strongly recommend this as a way to learn to read characters.

The problem is like the previous poster. The chinese think I am fluent but then they use expressions I dont know. So to do business I need to improve to the point where I speak as well as they do and with the same intonations so I dont get treated like a laowai.

[gato]

You don't have to learn how to write. It take much more memorization to be able to write Chinese characters from scratch. Just learn enough to be able to recognize them so you can write Chinese using pinyin on your computer.

Reading, however, is critical. Think back to how you learned your English. I doubt you simply watched movies and listened to radio. Popular entertainment is fine, but it wouldn't get you to the level of a college-educated person, or even a high-school-educated person.

I would suggest that you get a copy of the computerized dictionary, 金山词霸 (or Wenlin, 文林，which is much more expensive) and commit yourself to reading the business section of an online Chinese newspaper -- since your interest is business -- at least every other day, if not every day. 金山词霸 has pinyin annotation as well as recorded pronunciation of every word in its dictionary. You can compare how you're saying the words with the recording. I bet if you do this, you'll see noticeable improvement very quickly, probably in a month or two.

[roddy]

If you are looking to make your speech more natural and 'Chinese', then I recommend (almost constantly, I know ) this listening course and these two books for a good range of natural expressions.

Being able to pass for local Chinese seems like a bit of a strange goal to me - but then I'm white, and nobody but the blind would ever be fooled. I'd be more inclined to work on the specialised subjects you have trouble with. I generally find that if you are talking with a bunch of businessmen and they realise you know one obscure Chinese expression, they then test you on ever more obscure expressions until they find one you don't know . . .

Good luck

Roddy

[xtenhome]

I guess I think that if you can seem like a local in business then they may be less likely to try something.

I may be wrong but when I buy anything I always get better prices if they think I am local.

When they think I am foreign I get higher prices and sometimes service is different.

Sometimes it is better sometimes it is worst BUT seldom the same as a local.

So I guess I want to seem like a local so I fit in. They cannot tell from appearance so it is only from speech.

[skylee]

I may be wrong but when I buy anything I always get better prices if they think I am local.

When they think I am foreign I get higher prices and sometimes service is different.

This does not just happen in China.

Recently I tried to book some hotel rooms in Japan. I was quoted different prices for the same room in the same hotel for the same dates by the same on-line agency. The price from the English page of the website was about 1400 yen/room/night higher than that offered by the Japanese page. And when the English page told me that rooms of a certain hotel were not available, I could instantly book one on the Japanese page. So I had to register under the Japanese page to get the better price and the room.

[MarkKang]

So you want to be able to speak like a native eh? Well, first off, you should know that many people just don't have the talent for it, and can only get so close. For them, more effort at this aspect of second language acquisition is a waste of time, and they should be satisfied with the level of pronunciation the have, and work on other aspects of the language- vocabulary, listening skills etc.

Here are levels at which a native can notice a foreign accent-

1- Pronunciation of the individual character or word

2- Sentence rhythm and inflection

3- Grammar

4- Word choice

5- You have to say "what" too often/ Response time to slow

Next, how to improve in these areas:

For #1 and #2, you need a native friend who will be brutally honest with you. A professional teacher won't do this in a classroom setting. They need to have good standard Chinese as well. Your sessions with this friend will consist of repeating over and over those words and phrases that do not sound 100% natural. Take a word/phrase that needs improvement and go over it say 10 times. Your friend should say it first, then you copy once or twice. Your friend must tell you if it's not exactly right. You may not be able to get to where you want to be in one session, but by the time you have said the word/phrase for the tenth time, there should have been some improvement over your last session.

Try recording the above session, and see if you can pick out when you were off, and when you were right on. If you can, than you have the ear to practice by yourself. Some people suggest recording yourself as part of your self-study, but it's cumbersome to work that way. Try cupping your ear with your hand as you speak; if you do it right, it sounds like you are almost listening to another person.

I should add that there is no need to delay your other areas of language study just because your pronunciation of individual words and phrases isn't native like. Just work at it over time, and you're bound to improve.

For #3, you need to memorize sentence examples using the grammar structure you want to learn. Your goal is to use them to think. You must imagine the situation the sentence describes as you say it. If you don't, you are wasting your time. Even use hand gestures and body movements to help you get into it. Memorize stuff that is interesting and useful to you, don't just haphazardly pick stuff out of textbooks.

As to #4, most people don't take the time to thoroughly master a word's nuances of meaning. It helps a lot if you look the word up in several dictionaries. Your Chinese friends can also help you. Teachers are good for this type of stuff. Don't just learn a simple definition. Master the word and all it's uses.

#5 of course refers to listening ability. To get better, you have to listen to a wide variety- TV, radio, eavesdrop on people everywhere you can. If you are white it helps in this, because they often think you can't understand them, so they won't lower their voices. Something else that will cause you listening problems is if you learn English definitions rather than the real object or action of the Chinese word. Then, when you here it in conversation, your brain will be translating into English, rather than thinking in Chinese. If you can't get beyond this, you will always be handicapped.

[Harpoon]

And when the English page told me that rooms of a certain hotel were not available, I could instantly book one on the Japanese page.

this makes no sense... why would they make the room unavailable to a more wealthy westerner?

[Harpoon]

as per the thread, aren't there a LOT of accents? I mean, I think most of China speaks their own native language + Mandarin, right? And China is pretty big geographically, someone from some far Eastern Muslim province of China will have a different twang in their Mandarin than someone from northern Manchuria, and they'll probably use different expressions too... hell, I read something about the language situation in China... two Chinese who both say they speak "Mandarin" might end up having to use an interpreter! What does he mean by "local Chinese"?

And if he's in Shanghai, he will already be discriminated against by not speaking Shanghaihua (or Wu?), right?

[skylee]

this makes no sense... why would they make the room unavailable to a more wealthy westerner?

a) To the Japanese, westerners are probably not regarded as more wealthy;

B) You have a point. But why wouldn't they just charge everyone the higher price? I guess the website gives priority to serving the Japanese. But it is also possible that the system was having a problem when I was booking.

BTW, this is the website I am talking about (which is actually quite useful) -> http://travel.rakuten.co.jp

Sorry for sidetracking.

[Harpoon]

a) To the Japanese' date=' westerners are probably not regarded as more wealthy;

[/quote']

huh? i thought most of the world knows that westerners (at least the US) are better off than everyone else?

[MarkKang]

Harpoon, you are definitely right in your post 13. What is interesting is that, as a laowai, your standard Chinese may be better than say, someone from Guangzhou, yet other natives will know you are a foreigner from your speech. You make foreigner mistakes, but he makes Guangdongren mistakes. Even though, in total number, your mistakes are fewer, and perhaps even less serious than his, you are pegged.

[gato]

"A Concise Chinese Grammar" 簡明漢語語法

http://www.peacebook.com.hk/peacebook/hk/book_list/detail.jsp?id=20275

If you want to try another grammar book a try, this is a good one. It's bilingual in both Chinese and English and covers basically everything you need for everyday use. It has lots of examples and doesn't use too much jargons, unlike some grammar books.

This book "Chinese Grammar Without Tears" looks good also:

http://www.tokkai.com/annie/item/tx160.html

[xtenhome]

Thanks for all your help.

It is so hard to learn a language well (BIG SIGH !)

Going to be in Shanghai for some time so hopefully will get much better.

I listen to the call in radio talk shows in Shanghai whenever I can.

Will tape them so can replay. They are very useful and interesting because of

the human interest angle. Suggest people listen to them to improve. They are really very

interesting much better than the news. The news is hard to understand but am getting much better.

[tigerx9]

xtenhome,

i can understand your frustration in wanting to gain fluency in a language. don't be discouraged. it'll take time and patient to gain that native speaking fluency you want.

i think locating yourself in the environment is definitely a wise step, because that's the only way to gain the local fluency you want. the kind of local lingo, and slight nuances in pronunciation, will be picked up the more time you spend in the place, and is not something that can be learnt from a course, books, audios, softwares, etc. i think if u stay there for 6 months to a year, u'd see huge improvements - provided you put in the effort to practise with the locals. listening to the radio & tv, helps, but the real result comes from actual day-to-day speaking.

hey, if you can speak chinese already, then u're already so wayyy ahead of others still beginning! i'd say u're two-thirds or three-quarters of the way there already. don't worry, if u put in the effort to make friends there, know the locals, do the local thing, etc - in a years time, maybe singaporeans will mistake u for being a shanghainese!