Demonic_Duck Posted September 23, 2015 at 05:28 AM Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 at 05:28 AM I wrote down all the negatives I could think of in Chinese, and noticed a pattern in their initials: m: 莫mò、冇mǎo、没méi、呒ḿ w: 无wú、唔wú、毋wú、勿wù、未wèi f: 非fēi、否fǒu、匪fěi、弗fú、覅fiào b: 不bù、别bié、甭béng The words in blue are not used as negatives in Mandarin, but the nominal Mandarin pronunciation is given. Their pronunciation in their relevant 方言 also fits in with the m/w/f/b scheme. The sounds /m/, /w/, /b/ and /f/ are all produced in the same location in the mouth. Does that mean that all of these words are related? Are there any negatives in Chinese that don't fit this pattern? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted September 23, 2015 at 06:22 AM Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 at 06:22 AM All your /m/ and /w/ initialed negatives all started with /m/ in Middle Chinese, and all your /f/ and /p/ started with /p/. One can speculate that there was a morpheme that had a bilabial sound that had the function of negation in Old Chinese or some ancestor. I'm not sure about this. Maybe we should wait for a better expert. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamille Posted September 23, 2015 at 06:32 AM Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 at 06:32 AM Interesting. I couldn't think of any that don't fit in the pattern but here is one more that fits, for you : 嘸. I'm not sure of how to write it in correct Taiwanese pinyin but I think they would write "bee" with a rising tone (where "ee" sounds a bit like "a" in "about" or "u" in "but", it's somewhat close to these two). It has, however, a funny pronunciation in mandarin, where it's never used : m2 http://www.zdic.net/z/17/js/5638.htm. I must admit having never seen this pinyin before . But it fits in your pattern anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaokaka Posted September 23, 2015 at 12:08 PM Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 at 12:08 PM In Shanghainese 呒[嘸] is pronounced as /m/ in the word 呒没 (pth: 没有). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic_Duck Posted September 23, 2015 at 03:17 PM Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 at 03:17 PM @Hoffman: Very interesting (though not surprising) about Middle Chinese. Yeah, I'd be very curious to hear what a "better expert" had to say. @Kamille and @xiaokaka: Added that to my OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messidor Posted September 24, 2015 at 01:48 AM Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 at 01:48 AM 唐代的守温的三十字母与宋代的三十六字母比较，宋代三十六字母的四个“非、敷、奉、微”是从唇音“幫、滂、並、明”分出来的，于是学者们就认为fvw是从pbm里分化出来的，这个分化过程被认为发生在唐宋(之间)。 Can anyone translate it into English with proper terms? There are evidences especially from dialects and Japanese: 捧 and 奉 are pronounced as peng and feng respectively in putonghua, while the latter is the phonetic component of the former; the 万 is pronounced as wan in putonghua, but as ma? in many southern dialects and Japanese; the kana ふ (sounds like fu) is also ぷ (pronounced as pu) and ぶ (pronounced as bu) with diacritics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelyus Posted September 26, 2015 at 07:14 AM Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 at 07:14 AM The difference between the p/f class and the m/w class of negatives is well attested from the time of Old Chinese. Pulleyblank covers the difference well in his Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar. In Min Nan, the POJ Romanisation "b-" initials come from "m-" in Middle Chinese and correspond to either "m-" or "w-" in Mandarin Hanyu Pinyin. In Min Dong, the usual negative (usually transcribed 伓, i.e. 亻and 不) has kind of undergone methathesis to start with a vowel, usually /i/. @Messidor: On comparing the 30 initials of the Tang Dynasty's Shou Wen and the 36 initials of the Song dynasty, the four initials f-, fh-, v-, mv- of the Song are derived from the labials p-, ph- b-, m-. Hence scholars believe that f-, v-, w- come from p-, b-, m-, and the process by which this split occurred is believed to have taken place between the Tang and Song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic_Duck Posted September 26, 2015 at 09:13 AM Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 at 09:13 AM Wikipedia gives 守温 as a Tang Dynasty phonologist, so I assume it's not a typo for Shuowen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted September 26, 2015 at 11:13 AM Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 at 11:13 AM My source says the same as what Hoffman posted, with the addition that the pronunciation "bu" of 不 was colloquial in origin. The normal development was apparently represented by the pronunciation "fou" of 否. In addition, the difference between the "m" series of negatives and the "p" series of negatives was that one set was used in the oracle bones to negate sentences dealing with human volition, and the other set for the rest. The multiple negatives within each series have to do with various fusions between the negative and a following element: such as "m-" and the distributive "k" for 莫 and "p- " and 为 for 非. I also recall a fusion with 之, but can't recall which character was the result. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelyus Posted September 26, 2015 at 02:17 PM Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 at 02:17 PM @DemonicDuck D'oh! Duly corrected. @Altair I think that's one of the theories behind 弗 vs 不, the other theory being an aspectual difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messidor Posted September 30, 2015 at 06:24 AM Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 at 06:24 AM I thought the 字母 can be rendered as consonant character...|||-.- thanx for thetranslation @Michaelyus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted September 30, 2015 at 10:02 PM Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 at 10:02 PM The author of that definitely meant 聲母. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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