He isn`t buying books at a shop (he`s watching TV at home)

[rtf]

各位好：

 

Well,I believed that in 他没在商店买书  在 is a preposition,and 没 negates the verb 买,

so the only translation of it could be  1.'He didn`t buy books at a shop (he watched TV at home)',

but it`s been suggested today that a) there`re at least two more interpretations to it,namely 2.'He bought books but not at a shop (maybe on a market)' and  3.'He`s isn`t buying books at a shop (he`s buying bikes)'

 

b) Moreover it`s been said that 在 in the sentence at hand is a verb ('to be'),so it could also be interpreted as 'He isn`t in a shop,buying books (he`s somewhere else)'.

 

I`d very much like to hear out your take on that,please,especially on b.

 

 

谢谢。

[skylee]

I know nothing about Chinese grammar, but people on this website always say that the contexts are important. And the interpretations above show it. So what is the question?

I wonder why the English sentences are in present tense. When I see 沒 I wouldn't usually think it could be expressed in "to be + ing".

[Vildhjerp]

Yeah, I initially read the sentence as "He hasn't purchased any books at the shop."

 

(正)在 is indeed negated by 没(有), but wouldn't the sentence need to be rewritten as "他在商店没在买书" to ensure present progressive tense?

[rtf]

 

 

So what is the question?

 

The question is Do you,as a native speaker, consider 在 in the sentence 他在商店买书 a preposition or a verb?

That is is it 'He is in a shop buying books' or 'He is buying books in a shop'?

[BanZhiYun]

我在中国学汉语. Do  you think 在中国 in this case is a verb? Whenever you feel confused, you can try the same structure in a different sentence (one which you'd be familiar with would be best).

So to answer you, in this case  他［在商店］买书, ［在商店］is a prepositional adverbial, which always comes before the verb in Chinese grammar (买书). If 在 modifies the verb, then it's a 副词, an adverb for time (i.e. +ing). If you want to say "He's buy[ing] books at the store", it'd have to be 他（正）(or 正在, but that'd have too many repetitive 在s) (副词用）（在商店）（prepositional adverbial)  买书 (verb + obj.) Hope this helps!

[rtf]

Thanks,BanZhiYun,it sure does.

 

 

 

我在中国学汉语. Do  you think 在中国 in this case is a verb?

 

 I don`t,but the reason I asked was that one native speaker insists:

 

 

你弟弟在我这儿看杂志 ==> Negation: 你弟弟沒在我这儿看杂志  (在 is a verb corresponding to English 'is, was') - 'My brother isn`t with me here reading magazines' vs. 你弟弟在我这儿沒看杂志 (在 is a preposition) - 'My brother didn`t read magazines at my place'.

 

That confused me.

[BanZhiYun]

Basically, the second sentence 你弟弟在我这儿没看杂志 is gramatically wrong. When you have a negation word （没 in this case), it has to go before the prepositional adverbial. For example, you would say 我没在中国学汉语， instead of 我在中国没学汉语, it's just gramatically not a proper sentence. So, in this case, it should be 你弟弟没在我这儿看杂志.

[rtf]

My point exactly.The guy is from Taiwan,so I thought maybe grammar is slightly different from area to area in China?

[BanZhiYun]

Oh, Taiwan. They like to make sure they are so different from Mainland, but in general they have a Min Dialect（闽方言）there as well, so not sure how that affects their 普通话. I mean, even for some common words, they have different tones than the 普通话, so I guess it makes a difference if you make references with Taiwanese friends.

[Guest realmayo]

你弟弟在我这儿没看杂志 = Your brother didn't read a magazine when he was with me.

Am I right?

Edit: and is the Chinese sentence really wrong? It looks okay to me.

[rtf]

Thanks again,BanZhiYun.我知道了。

[歐博思]

This thread may be of some help, especially post #6.

 

And post #8 here seems to independently have come to a similar conclusion.

[BanZhiYun]

@realmayo

It's just basically that negations come before the prepositions, for example, would you say 我不跟你说话了  or  我跟你不说话了?

[歐博思]

 

 

It's just basically that negations come before the prepositions, for example, would you say 我不跟你说话了  or  我跟你不说话了?

 

Could we give a different logical reading, and say something like: "我跟你不说话......而跟你......来点别的”?

[BanZhiYun]

@欧博思， I am pretty sure it should still be 我不跟你说话...而跟你...来点别的. The simplest example of negation and prepositions is the 把字句. If you want to negate, it should be 不把（什么东西）（做什么), it's a common mistake for foreigners to put the negation before the verb. So, it's the same rule with all other prepositions as well, just different kind of prepositions.

[Guest realmayo]

It's just basically that negations come before the prepositions

 

If that's a rule, fair enough. But in 你弟弟在我这儿没看杂志, perhaps 在 is not a preposition but a verb!

 

 

我在家看电视。

我不在家看电视。

我在家不看电视。

[歐博思]

I just now noticed when I replace 不 with another negation word 别, that to my non-native ear it sounds less acceptable. Such as: 你跟他别说话. Unless, like realmayo mentioned 跟 in this case is a verb "when you are following him, don't talk (he likes silence)"? 

 

我要下菜，不跟你们扯了

[BanZhiYun]

@realmayo 我在家看电视。That's correct.

我不在家看电视。That's correct.

我在家不看电视。That's incorrect.

Unlike Ancient Chinese, words in Modern Chinese can not change their 词性. Furthermore, 在 , when it's a verb, means 处于 (simplest explanation). Then again, let's say in your example it's a verb, then 我［主］在［谓］家［宾］看电视 ［？] , 看电视 would have 0 gramatical value. If it had no gramatical value, it wouldn't be in the sentence. Version 2, if 在 was modifying the verb ［看］(在看）(i.e watching), then that's not a verb, but an adverb （时间副词）, then if it was an adverb ［家］（？）becomes with no value. On the other hand, I am not exactly sure if you know in full what a 状语 is in Chinese, and furthermore which parts of the speech can be 壮语 in a sentence. One of them is called 介词短语, as is in this sentence. Furthermore, the 壮语 can be separated in 2 types, 描写性状语 and 限制性状语. Here, ［在家］is a 限制性状语, I will write down the explanation in Chinese:

从时间，地点，方式，原因，对象，目的等方面对谓语进行限制的状语叫做限制性状语。这类壮语主要是副词，介词短语等。例如：
（1）这儿有时也刮台风。（“有时” 表示时间）

（2）同学们在教室复习汉语。（“在教室” 表示地点）
（3）抽烟对身体不好。（“对身体” 表示对象）
（4）为这事，弟弟还哭了一场。（“为这事” 表示原因）

You can think about which one of this examples is similar to 我在家看电视.  In short, there is no chance that 在 in this sentence is a verb, so the negation has to be put before the 在. Doing a gramatical analyse on a chinese sentence is indeed one of the hardest tasks while studying Chinese (at least during Undergrad). We will have a course for an entire semester doing just that, Chinese syntax, 句法. It's really easy to get confused if you are not 100% sure about every part of the speech and sentence. Hope this helps!

@欧博思 You're right, 别 has to be before the preposition, and as I mentioned above Modern Chinese words can not change their 词性 as it was in Ancient Chinese (obv. some words, not all of them), so 跟 is a 100% preposition. 

[skylee]

我在家不看电视。That's incorrect.

Why is it incorrect? I am not sure I understand this.

[Messidor]

well...他没在商店买书 is a good example of semantic ambiguity. The key of the analysis lies in the semantic orientation of 没.

When 没 is oriented to the agent 他, then the rendering would be he isn't/wasn't in the bookstore buying book (he's somewhere else);  if 没 is oriented to the prepositional phrase 在商店, the rendering shall be he bought the book (but) not in the bookstore; if 没 is oriented to the action 买书, the rendering will be he's not buying book in the store(but flirting with the storekeeper); if 没 is oriented to the object 书, the rendering may be he bought (sth but) not the book in the bookstore.

There're several ways to disambiguate this syntactically neat sentence ---- oral: eg. put a stress on the word 书, 没 will be oriented to 书; syntactic: change the order of words or change the words, eg. 他没在商店买任何东西, 没 will be oriented to 东西 ; contextual: provide additional information, for example 他没在商店买书，他在和店主调情呢。

 

ps:

在 have to be a preposition, otherwise the sentence is syntactically wrong, since a preposition is required to form a prepositional phrase with 商店 to serve as locative adverbial. Another example 他在商店里喊了一声 may be explicit, if 在 is an adverb which indicating the aspect of the verb to be continuous then the interpretation will be in a quandary, since 了 indicates the aspect to be perfect. And it'll be naive to state that the 在 in 他(没)在商店买书 and that in 他在商店里喊了一声 are of two different parts of speech, since the two sentences are structurally the same, regardless the semantic discrepancy. What's confusing here is that whether preposition 在 in 他在商店里看书呢 also share some function of the adverb 在 ---- if we move away the prepositional phrase 在商店里, the remnant 他看书呢 looks slightly odd, for the continuous aspect of the verb 看 seems to be largely taken away.

pps:

There are three types of ambiguity in the narrow sense, that is, the lexical ambiguity (eg. spring -->helix or -->water), syntactic ambiguity (eg. the teachers of the boy and the girl are singing) and semantic ambiguity, and the last two are usually categorized as structural ambiguity. 他没在商店买书 fits into the last type and we don't have to change the part of speech for different interpretations here.

 

@rtf   you can try the disambiguation with this syntactically well formed sentence 我不在家看电视.