(NPPLC) Chapters #20 & 21 鄒孟軻母 (1&2)

[somethingfunny]

This thread is for the discussion of chapters twenty and twenty-one in A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese by Paul Rouzer.

 

I'll be looking at this either at the weekend or early next week so there is time for anyone else interested to acquaint themselves with the text and maybe provide a translation.

 

The two parts this week concern the philosopher Mencius' mother.  Once we're done with this we'll move onto Mencius himself and finally begin looking at philosophy.  Anyway, here is part 1:

 

鄒孟軻之母也。號孟母。其舍近墓。孟子之少也，嬉遊為墓間之事，踴躍築埋。孟母曰：「此非吾所以居處子也。」乃去舍市傍。其嬉戲為賈人衒賣之事。孟母又曰：「此非吾所以居處子也。」復徙舍學宮之傍。其嬉遊乃設俎豆揖讓進退。孟母曰：「真可以居吾子矣。」遂居及。孟子長，學六藝，卒成大儒之名。君子謂孟母善以漸化。《詩》云：「彼姝者子，何以予之？」此之謂也。孟子之少也，既學而歸，孟母方績，問曰：「學何所至矣？」孟子曰：「自若也。」孟母以刀斷其織。孟子懼而問其故，孟母曰：「子之廢學，若吾斷斯織也。夫君子學以立名，問則廣知，是以居則安寧，動則遠害。今而廢之，是不免於廝役，而無以離於禍患也。何以異於織績而食，中道廢而不為，寧能衣其夫子，而長不乏糧食哉！女則廢其所食，男則墮於脩德，不為竊盜，則為虜役矣。」孟子懼，旦夕勤學不息，師事子思，遂成天下之名儒。君子謂孟母知為人母之道矣。《詩》云：「彼姝者子，何以告之？」此之謂也。孟子懼，旦夕勤學不息，師事子思，遂成天下之名儒。君子謂孟母知為人母之道矣。《詩》云：「彼姝者子，何以告之？」此之謂也。

 

And here is part 2:

 

孟子既娶，將入私室，其婦袒而在內，孟子不悅，遂去不入。婦辭孟母而求去，曰：「妾聞夫婦之道，私室不與焉。今者妾竊墮在室，而夫子見妾，勃然不悅，是客妾也。婦人之義，蓋不客宿。請歸父母。於是孟母召孟子而謂之曰：「夫禮，將入門，問孰存，所以致敬也。將上堂，聲必揚，所以戒人也。將入戶，視必下，恐見人過也。今子不察於禮，而責禮於人，不亦遠乎！」孟子謝，遂留其婦。君子謂孟母知禮，而明於姑母之道。孟子處齊，而有憂色。孟母見之曰：「子若有憂色，何也？」孟子曰：「不敏。」異日閒居，擁楹而歎。孟母見之曰：「鄉見子有憂色，曰不也，今擁楹而歎，何也？」孟子對曰：「軻聞之：君子稱身而就位，不為苟得而受賞，不貪榮祿。諸侯不聽，則不達其上。聽而不用，則不踐其朝。」今道不用於齊，願行而母老，是以憂也。」孟母曰：「夫婦人之禮，精五飯，审酒漿，養舅姑，縫衣裳而已矣。故有閨內之脩，而無境外之志。《易》曰：『在中饋，無攸遂。』《詩》曰：『無非無儀，惟酒食是議。』以言婦人無擅制之義，而有三從之道也。故年少則從乎父母，出嫁則從乎夫，夫死則從乎子，禮也。今子成人也，而我老矣。子行乎子義，吾行乎吾禮。」君子謂孟母知婦道。《詩》云：「載色載笑，匪怒匪教。」此之謂也。頌曰：孟子之母，教化列分，處子擇藝，使從大倫，子學不進，斷機示焉，子遂成德，為當世冠。

 

Text stolen from here.

 

Happy reading.

[somethingfunny]

OK, here is my translation for part 1:

 

Mencius of Zou’s mother was a woman named Mother Meng.  When she lived by a graveyard, Mencius would play amongst the gravestones, jumping around, digging and burying.  His mother said, “This is not the kind of place where I can raise my son.”  So they moved to live next to the market.  Mencius liked to play in the market, pretending to be a salesman and laying out his wares for customers.  Again, Mencius’ mother said, “This is not the kind of place where I can raise my son.”  Again they moved, this time to live beside a school.  Here, Mencius liked to wander around, preparing sacrifices and following the rituals.”  His mother said, “This is certainly a place where I can raise my son.” And they continued to live there.  When Mencius had grown older, he learned the six arts, and made a name for himself as a great Confucian scholar.  When the Lord said, “Mother Meng is good at gradual change” and the poem says, “This wonderful woman, what can we give to her?”, it is to this that they are referring.

 

When Mencius was young and he came home from school, his mother asked him, “What have you studied?” To which Mencius replied, “The same as usual.”  Mother Meng took her knife and cut the threat she was sowing.  Mencius was frightened and asked her the reason for her actions.  She said to him, “The way you abandon your studies, is like the way that I cut this thread.  Great men study in order to make a name for themselves, they ask questions to expand their knowledge.  As a result of this they can be peaceful at home and keep danger at a distance in their work.  By casting aside your studies, it is unavoidable that you will become a servant, and have no means by which to keep disaster and trouble at a distance.  How is it different from me spinning this thread to make a living?  If I do half a job and give up and not continue, how can I clothe my husband and always not be short of provisions?  If a woman abandons her duty toward providing food and a man abandons his duty to cultivating virtue, then if you do not become a robber or a thief, then you will become a prisoner or a servant.”  Mencius was afraid and from morning to night studied with great effort and did not stop to rest, taking Zisi as his teacher he eventually became a great Confucian philosopher of the world.  When the great men say, “Mother Meng knows the way to be a good mother,” and the poem says, “This wonderful woman, what can we offer her,” they both speak of Mother Meng.

1. 嬉游为墓间之事 – I don’t really see what 之事 contributes here.  The sentence seems to make perfect sentence without, but the grammar of adding it on confuses me.
2. 揖让进退 – Should I just treat this as an idiomatic expression? Literally: “To bow, and yield, come in and go out.”
3. These continual references to what 君子 said.  Is this a specific person, or just ‘great men’ in general?
4. 彼姝者子 – What’s this 子 doing here?
5. 学何所至矣? – Can I treat this 至 like ‘to arrive in a place’ meaning that this would be like asking 你学到哪里了?
6.  师事子思 – Is this a ‘causative’ usage of 事? As in: “For his teacher, he employed Zisi”?  Could you add a 为 (or maybe 以) at the start of the sentence?

 

There are a few places where I wasn't sure about the translation and ended up doing something awkward, so if you like pointing out mistakes, theres lots to be had here and in the translation for part 2...

[somethingfunny]

I know of found it hard to find complete translations into modern mandarin for this part, but theres some stuff around from the usual suspects if you just search for the title on google, including an English translation here.

 

Anyway, here is part 2:

 

 

After Mencius had already taken a wife, he was about to enter his bedroom and his wife was inside already undressed to the waist.  Mencius was not pleased and left instead of going into the room.  Mencius' wife 辭'd Mother Meng, and looked for her to say, "I have heard that the (formal) way for a husband and wife to act does not extend to the bedroom.  Now I am secret? and careless? in the bedroom, and when my husband sees me he abruptly treats me as a guest.  The role of a wife should not be to live as a guest.  Please allow me to return to my parents."  On hearing this Mother Meng summoned her son and said to him, "Now then, the rites say that when a man enters a room he should first ask if anyone is present so that he may convey the correct respect.  When one is about to enter a hall, one should raise their voice, in order to alert people to one's arrival.  When you enter a house, you must lower your gaze 恐见人过也.  Today you do not examine the rituals but rather look for fault in other's practice of the rituals, is this not indeed a long way from how you should be acting?  Mencius apologised and proceeded to keep his wife.  The great men of the time said, "Mother Meng knows the rites, she understands how a mother should act."

 

Mencius was in Qi, with a worried look on his face.  His mother saw him and said to him, "You appear worried, what is wrong?" and Mencius replied "Nothing".  On a different day, he was holding onto a pillar and sighing and when his mother saw him she asked, "Before I saw you were worried and you said it was nothing, now I see you holding onto a pillar and sighing, what is it?"  Mencius replied, "I have heard that great men weigh themselves before taking their place, they do not seek money through illicit means and does not covet glory or money.  If the feudal Lord will not listen, you should not report to him, if he listens but has no use for your words, you should not hold court with him.  Today I am of no use to Qi and although I am willing to go I worry because you are old."  Mencius' mother replied, "Peoples rites are as follows: to be skilled in the preparation of the five types of grain, be able to brew alcohol, look after your aunts and uncles, fix clothes, and that is all.  By cultivating yourself in the women's quarters, externally you have the will.  The Yijing says "Prepare food within, and there will be no external desires" and the poem says, "no adornments, no ornaments, only food and alcohol are her concerns"  When we speak of a woman's role we can say that there are three paths which she should follow.  When she is young she should follow her father, when she marries she should follow her husband and when her husband dies she should follow her son.  These are the rites.  Today you are a grown man, and I am an old woman, you practice your principles and I will practice my rites."

 

The wise men say, "Mother Meng knows a woman's path" and the poem says "With smiles on her face, without anger she teaches him" they both refer to this.  The song says, "Mencius' mother, she cultivated his judgement and made him follow natural relationships.  Mencius studied but did not progress, so she cut the thread and showed it to him.  He perfected his virtues and was foremost in the world."

 

 

1. I'm starting to get a bit confused about the way the passages are punctuated.  Rouzer has a full stop after 其妇袒而在内 but I found this a little awkward (in the original Chinese) and sure enough, the translation I ripped off the web has this as a comma.  So... what's that about?
2. 妇辞孟母 Not really sure what that 辞 is.  Something she does Mencius' mother before looking for her to speak to her?
3. 今者妾竊墮在室 No idea.
4. 夫礼将入门 is this 夫 the one that introduces an opinion?
5. 恐见人过也 Another one I'm not really sure about, who is looking at who here?
6. 今子不察於禮，而責禮於人，不亦遠乎！My translation for this (see above) is very awkward.
7. There appears to be a mistake in Rouzer which has it that Mencius says "不敢" rather than "不敏".
8. 今道不用於齊，願行而母老，是以憂也 What is 道 getting at here?
9. If I interpret 夫妻 as 'husband and wife' then what should I do with 夫妇人?
10. 故有閨內之脩，而無境外之志 Is Mencius' mum talking about what I think she's talking about?
11. 以言婦人無擅制之義 I can't find 擅 in Rouzer so I just took a guess at this one.

 

I could come up with a load more questions, especially concerning all the references to Yijing and Shijing etc. but I'm not going to worry about those for the moment.  I'm a little disappointed by how many questions I have and how much looking up of vocabulary I'm having to do.  It makes me feel like I might not quite be ready to be continuing on just yet.  But we're about to start on the philosophy, which I'm pretty excited about and if I want to get through the book before the end of the year I'm going to be doing an average of more than one lesson a week.

 

Anyway, Mencius' mother seems cool, she had me up until the three paths thing.  Did she come up with that, or is she teaching someone else's idea there?  Most of what she talks about I can understand, but some of the stuff she says had me a bit lost.  Sometimes I get so caught up in translating that I neglect spending time to reflect on what any of it actually means...

[somethingfunny]

OK, that's a lot of questions, sorry about that, but massive respect to anyone that can spare some time to contribute.

 

I'll put up the first of the Mencius tomorrow so people have some time to looks at it.

[Angelina]

Hm, the three paths thing.

[somethingfunny]

If we take her words literally, how are the women actually supposed to follow any of these paths with their feet bound??

[Angelina]

[crying]

Not in Mengzi's time, footbinding appeared later.

[yvesc]

haven't read your translations, comparing and commenting original vs translation is quite a tedious work.

 

however, about your question:

 

 

1. I'm starting to get a bit confused about the way the passages are punctuated.  Rouzer has a full stop after 其妇袒而在内 but I found this a little awkward (in the original Chinese) and sure enough, the translation I ripped off the web has this as a comma.  So... what's that about?
   You are aware that original texts were not punctuated, aren't you? Punctuation was added much later, and indeed remained rudimentary until modern times.
   Here, full stop or comma, the meaning remains the same.
2. 妇辞孟母 Not really sure what that 辞 is.  Something she does Mencius' mother before looking for her to speak to her?
   you could interpret 辞 as the verb 'to tell': she told the whole story to Ma. However, because of context and construction, I believe it is the more common meaning 'to take leave'; even if you will say that the sequence is strange. 求去 she asked to leave, not she looked for her.
3. 今者妾竊墮在室 No idea.
   seeing that dict say 墮: 古通“惰”, it might mean that she was "slacking" (taking a break), a strict equivalent of modern 偷懒
4. 夫礼将入门 is this 夫 the one that introduces an opinion?
   don't know about 'introducing an opinion'. Initial 夫 often sounds as "well," ,"now,...", "as to...". Might be 'as to politeness, (it consists in)...'
5. 恐见人过也 Another one I'm not really sure about, who is looking at who here?
   Nobody. It's 'for fear of seeing sb's misbehaviour' (for fear of seeing sb in an embarrassing situation)
6. 今子不察於禮，而責禮於人，不亦遠乎！My translation for this (see above) is very awkward.
7. There appears to be a mistake in Rouzer which has it that Mencius says "不敢" rather than "不敏".
8. 今道不用於齊，願行而母老，是以憂也 What is 道 getting at here?
   now my teachings are disregarded in Qi, I want to leave
9. If I interpret 夫妻 as 'husband and wife' then what should I do with 夫妇人?
   empty 夫
10. 故有閨內之脩，而無境外之志 Is Mencius' mum talking about what I think she's talking about?
    No. She has to take care of what goes on in the gynaeceum, not to trouble herself with the vast world.
11. 以言婦人無擅制之義 I can't find 擅 in Rouzer so I just took a guess at this one.
    擅 to take it upon herself--"these say that it's not in a woman to make decisions,..."

[somethingfunny]

Hey, I agree about comparing translated texts.  Honestly, I wouldn't really expect people to be going through it with a fine-tooth comb, it's more for reference really.

 

In response to a few of your points:

 

I knew about them not being punctuated originally, but I thought there would have been some kind of "agreed standard" version.  I guess different people have their own different interpretations though, which vary with the way its punctuated.

 

婦辭孟母而求去

If this 辭 is "to take leave" then what exactly is this sentence saying?  His wife takes leaves of Mencius's mother and then asks to leave?  That doesn't seem to make sense.

 

empty 夫

Sorry, I'm not really sure what this means.  Could you elaborate?

 

Thanks.

[yvesc]

"what exactly is this sentence saying"

I had anticipated that. You can get out of it by saying 辭 is "to tell". It's not my instinct though. She paid a courtesy, leave-taking visit to the mother, saying that she wanted to leave (for good). 

 

empty word, 虛詞. 夫 doesn't mean 'man' here', it's a coincidence. 

 

About "not reading the translation": this was in no way a rebuke; just telling what I have not done.

[somethingfunny]

No problem.  I provide the translations more as an exercise for myself to be honest.  If I didn't then I probably wouldn't be as thorough as I currently am.  Also, I think when this series of threads started (more than two years ago now) one of the ideas was that there would be translations for every lesson, so I like to include them for completeness.  Maybe when (if!?) I get to the end a moderator could go back and edit the first post to include links to every chapter (and maybe pin it?) so it can serve as a reference for anyone who happens to pick this book up in the future.  I feel a bit awkward about starting all these new threads to be honest, I'm worried people think "Oh great, a classical chinese subforum... oh wait it's just for the discussion of that one book."  I'll probably need 5 or 6 new threads and then the madness can end.

[H. Harroty]

To 2#

1. 嬉游为墓间之事 Literaly "to play and do things of the graveyard" 为 to do 墓间 graveyard 之 -'s 事 thing
2. 揖让进退 Idiomatically it means manner, that is, proper social behavior (in Confucianism).
3. 君子 "good man"(also in Confucianism)
4. 彼姝者子 "that(彼) woman(子), the beautiful(姝) one(者)"
5. Yes.
6. 师事子思 事 here means "to treat, to deal with". 师 here is used as an adverb meaning "like a teacher". So the whole sentence means simply "taking Zisi as his teacher"

[H. Harroty]

To 3#

1. Chinese punctuations are not distinguished grammatically as English ones are. Moreover punctuations of classical texts are applied far more ad libitum than modern texts, since there is no puncs at all in the original classical texts.
2. 辞 to say goodbye to
3. 今者妾竊墮在室 "Just now(今者) I(妾) privately(竊) took a break(墮) in(在) the room(室)."
4. Here to introduce a topic(礼) more than an opinion.
5. 恐见人过也'for fear of seeing sb's misbehaviour' , same as 8#.
6. 察 here means rather "to fully understand". Yes it is awkward. That's exactly how classical texts are.
7. Likely.
8. 道 My belief, my world view. Here it refers to Confucianism.
9. 夫 here is the same as 4., to introduce a topic(婦人之禮).
10. She is talking about the Confucianist view on women here, which is exactly a traditional patriarchal opinion: women are merely households and should always give in to men's wills.
11. 擅, to handle, to take charge. "these say that it's not in a woman to make decisions,..." -Yes.

[Angelina]

I found something on 孟子, it looks like a better way to understand the philosophy.

Here is the first lecture

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA3NTYxOTQ4Mg==&mid=304519145&idx=1&sn=726139bed521f6d9a2870454957c5f5f&scene=1&srcid=1025J36V90JZQegAGbneK7CO&from=groupmessage&isappinstalled=0#rd

[somethingfunny]

嬉游为墓间之事 - Could we say that this is something like "to make a game of the things of the graveyard"?  Just like he plays at being a shopkeeper, here he's playing at burial rituals?

 

恐见人过也 - Still not 100% on this one.  Does 过 here have the meaning of "make an error"?

[somethingfunny]

I've just realised that the first of the three 从's (故年少則從乎父母) I translated as "When she is young she should follow her father" but I guess this should actually be parents, right?

[yvesc]

恐见人过也 -- 恐怕见到人家的过错. 

 

嬉游为墓间之事 -- amusing himself (嬉游) at doing (为) burial ceremonies (as child's play of course)

 

both are pretty straightforward sentences.