In which cases is Hanyu Pinyin not phonetic?

[Friday]

I noticed that in some situations, Hanyu Pinyin is not very phonetic or even self-consistent. I realize that Chinese varies greatly among speakers of different regions, but I find the same inconsistencies in Hanyu Pinyin and pronunciation in all study materials that I have and asked several speakers who are from different parts of the country to record some sample sentences and found the same inconsistencies.

 

For example, “o” will have different sounds:

• In 我, “o” sounds more like “au” in “Australia”.
• In 周末, “o” in “末” sounds more like “o” in “okay”.
• In 萝卜, “o” in “卜” sounds like it has a very light “w” sound between the “b” and “o”, like “bwo”. I found transcripts using Zhuyin Fuhao which include the“w” sound in the spelling of this word.

Are there any other similar such internal inconsistencies within Hanyu Pinyin?

[Demonic_Duck]

In 周末, “o” in “末” sounds more like “o” in “okay”.

If it sounds anything like the "o" in "okay", you're definitely pronouncing it wrong. A similar sound is already represented by "ou" in pinyin.

 

I think all of the initials of all these syllables are labialised, which might be what you're picking up on. The latter two could equally well be written in pinyin as "muo" and "buo"; however, by convention they're written "mo" and "bo".

[edelweis]

Pinyin is not phonetic at the letter level.

It is phonetic at the syllable level.

You have to learn the pronunciation of each syllable.

Other apparent orthographic inconsistencies (i.e. conventions)

The i in "shi" is not the same as in "mi"

the u in "qu","xu' is actually ü

there is an o sound in "liu"

etc....

That's why decent textbooks have a pinyin table and each syllable recorded separately.

[Hofmann]

Pinyin doesn't claim to be phonetic. If you want phonetic, use IPA.

[renzhe]

What edelweis said. Don't look at pinyin letter-by-letter, look at it syllable-by-syllable.

 

For example, -ong is always pronounced the same way. -o is always pronounced the same way. -ou the same way, etc.

[edelweis]

@renzhe: by syllable I meant initial+final, the whole 2D table. Not just the final.

Some (orthographic) finals are always pronounced the same way but not all (especially -i, -u).

Some (phonetic) finals are written differently depending on the initial (the Mandarin sound often but not always written ü).

 

 

@Hofmann: maybe Pinyin is not meant to be phonetic, but still there's only one way to write each syllable (unlike English "tee" and "tea").

So for regular (non-linguist) people like me, Pinyin can be considered "kind of phonetic", as long as you take each Pinyin syllable as a phonetic sign, and not each letter.

 

 

I'll just stop reading this thread as the pinyin topic has been rehashed so many times already.

Besides the OP isn't known to take much interest in threads beyond 1 post.

[Friday]

If it sounds anything like the "o" in "okay", you're definitely pronouncing it wrong.

Is there any other syllable in English that the "o" in "周末" sounds like?

[Friday]

Pinyin doesn't claim to be phonetic. If you want phonetic, use IPA.

I tried searching for an IPA system for Chinese, but could not find one that I could reliably trust, as many Internet sites with an IPA to pinyin conversion had errors in the pinyin list, for example, not indicating the variation in pronunciation of "o".

 

The International Organization for Standardization seems to have created a standard IPA for Chinese, but it costs a lot of money to just access the document describing this. Is there an "official" Chinese IPA that is used by many scholars? Or are there any Hanyu Pinyin alternatives which are genuinely phonetic?

[imron]

Is there any other syllable in English that the "o" in "周末" sounds like?

That depends I guess what accent of English you speak with.  Rather than mapping to English, I'd just repeatedly listen to a pinyin soundboard and then record yourself saying the same sounds back until you've got it right.

[Flickserve]

You could get yourself a copy of 普通话水平测试实施纲要。

There is a CD in it which has standard pronunciation. Basically, it has lots and lots of pronunciation exercises that China students use for for their own pronunciation practice when preparing for their own putonghua examination.

[BanZhiYun]

@Friday, I am studying exactly that right now, Introduction to Phonetics & Chinese Phonetics. I have IPA in Chinese. Pinyin, as seen from the characters, is to 拼写 the syllables, not to define the sounds. If you want sound to sound writing, use IPA. IPA is used to transliterate all the sounds, while Pinyin is used to transcript them. These are separate terms, look them up, and everything will look much easier.

[DachZanz]

Something interesting to note about Pinyin is that it wasn't a system designed to teach Chinese to foreigners - It was a system for Chinese to use themselves.  

 

Some examples of where this comes into play have been listed already, such as the "o" in "mo" and "bo" having the same pronunciation as "uo" in "duo" and "luo."

 

These things just don't require differentiation for Chinese, because they're Chinese, and they already understand it!  I recommend studying a chart with all of the starting and ending sounds.  It's a great way to really pin down pronunciation, and after spending some time with it, you'll feel motivated that Chinese pronunciation isn't as crazy as it seems.

[renzhe]

Some examples of where this comes into play have been listed already, such as the "o" in "mo" and "bo" having the same pronunciation as "uo" in "duo" and "luo."

I think that it's also important to note that Chinese, like any other language, tolerates a certain amount of deviation with many syllables, and pinyin often picks the written representation that is easier to write. The thing with "bo" is that the final opens up towards the end, sounding a bit like "u" turning into "o", or "o" turning slightly into "a".

 

The exact amount of how much a "bo" sounds like a "buo" will vary by speaker, same goes for "liu" and "liou", or "dui" and "duei" (*)

 

Pronouncing these syllables the "way you would expect from looking at pinyin " is not uncommon and I've heard it from native speakers. Listen for example, to Cui Jian pronounce 六 in 新长征路上的摇滚.

 

 

(*) note that the second example is not proper pinyin

[roddy]

If you're pronouncing 剥夺 with the same vowel for each syllable, I'd say you're doing it wrong. You can get away with it as there's no bo / buo ; do/duo minimal pair to cause confusion, but...

[Lu]

Listen for example, to Cui Jian pronounce 六 in 新长征路上的摇滚.

I feel that some bands/singers have a distinct rock 'n roll pronunciation, which is not always the same as standard putonghua, much as Jingju pronunciation isn't.

 

It can also be useful to keep in mind that Mandarin has changed a little since pinyin was invented. What was totally consistent in the days of Zhao Yuanren may not be as consistent now. I once heard a record of Zhao Yuanren himself speaking Chinese words for a course, and his yuan rhymed with tan and fan.

[renzhe]

I feel that some bands/singers have a distinct rock 'n roll pronunciation

OMG, now I know what accent I want to train

[DachZanz]

If you're pronouncing 剥夺 with the same vowel for each syllable, I'd say you're doing it wrong

 

I understand that this varies based on region/ dialect etc, but could you elaborate on the difference in vowel sounds, please?  (:

 

ETA:  Here is my source for saying that the -o and -uo ending are pronounced the same.

 

Spelt o, pronounced as uo

The syllables bo, po, mo, fo are actually pronounced buo, puo, muo, fuo (listen), which means that they rhyme with duo, tuo, nuo, luo and so on (listen and compare). Using IPA, this sound is written [woo]. For example, bo and duo are written as [pwoo] and [twoo] respectively. As we can see, these syllables rhyme.

 

 

Source Link:  http://www.hackingchinese.com/a-guide-to-pinyin-traps-and-pitfalls/

[roddy]

That's interesting, will drop Olle a line about that. Wonder if it's a Taiwan thing. Or just my ears 

Have a listen to

- about 30 secs in, should start at the right time. For me, there's a clear difference, a purer vowel sound on the bo and a diphthong on the duo.

 

Also, if it's the same vowel, why are they on different lines in the Pinyin chart and why are they spelled differently? Seems an unnecessary complication. And there are various correspondences between Pinyin and the IPA. This one distinguishes the two vowels, for example.

 

"Wrong" was a bit excessive - I can see it as part of an accent. But often I think what in a Chinese person is an accent is perceived as a mistake in a learner, especially if it's not consistent - having a Tianjin accent is one thing, having a mix of Tianjin, Shanghai and Gaoxiong, depending on where you learned certain words, is another.

 

I'll also own up to being quite Beijing-centric - lived there most of my time in China, most of my study materials came from BLCU or elsewhere in the city. Etc.  

[li3wei1]

Also look at the zhuyinfuhao:

ㄅㄛ ㄉㄨㄛ

Clearly, while they rhyme, there is an additional ㄨ sound in the second syllable.

Again, that may be a Taiwan thing.

[roddy]

I just tried to figure out what the case was in Wade-Giles and am now very glad I never had to work with Wade-Giles...