Ashamed of speaking Chinese

[skylee]

Frankly I have never thought about this as I almost always travel alone and hardly have any chance to speak at all. But I understand completely.

Thoughts / views are welcome.

From the Fruit Daily (http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/realtime/china/20151209/54516920) -

“日媒：台人討厭被當中國人

台灣人出遊，最忌被認作中國人？日本《產經新聞》一篇以「被認作中國人會很懊惱，來日觀光變得靜默......爆買的背後，看見中台深溝」的文章，就完全道盡了台灣旅客這種心態。

報道指，當「爆買」一詞奪下2015年的日本流行語大獎，反映的是日本到處都能見到大肆採購的中國觀光客；同一時刻，旅日的台灣遊客卻變得沉默，同樣說中文，說話時盡量壓低音量，因為「討厭被誤認成中國人」。而11月在新加坡的「習馬會」後，台灣民間「不想被混為一談」的情緒更強烈。

一對60歲左右的台灣夫婦，跟團到日本關西10日遊，他們表示，剛到時還會說中文，但之後在觀光景點、百貨商場、旅館的大廳等地交談情形就變少了，聊天時會注意音量，周圍的人聽得到就好。「不想被當中國人，不然感覺好像會被伴手禮店的店員看輕。一注意到這一點，全團的言行風格就一致了。」這對夫妻說。

不只台灣旅行團如此，自由行的台灣人也變得低調。一對70歲的夫妻，在大阪心齋橋的咖啡店並肩坐着，耳語似地交談，音調特別輕。他們此行是來名古屋探訪留學的女兒，並順道旅遊，「我們每年都會來日本玩，今年女兒特別交代我們，說中國觀光客大增，在人前盡量不要講中文。」

《產經新聞》分析，去年訪日的外國人中，台灣人第一名佔283萬人，中國241萬人居第三；但今年1至10月的統計情形顯示，中國人倍增達428萬人，台灣人居第三位311萬人。今年兩岸首腦進行了暌違66年的會談，但其實台灣民間反應冷淡，多數人民希望維特現狀。「台灣是民主社會，總統是民選的，別把台灣和中國人混為一談，這樣對台灣的貿易、經濟是不利的。」受訪的台灣觀光客說。

《產經新聞》認為，旅日的台灣人言行變化，也反映了複雜的中台關係之下台灣人民根深柢固的感情。“

[Geiko]

This post by OneEye instantly came to mind: 

 

My Taiwanese friends try to avoid speaking Mandarin when in HK so they don't get mistaken for Chinese tourists, opting for English instead.

[陳德聰]

This used to be a thing for Canadians abroad, putting a Canadian flag on our backpacks so people didn't mistake us for Americans when we were speaking English to each other. It's sad on both the level that there are genuinely awful people out there who are looking for reasons to treat you badly (eg. You must be American, and I don't like Americans, and so I will treat you badly!), and that the people affected seem to actually perpetuate this silly game by playing into it (eg. Oh don't treat me badly, I'm a Canadian! I'm not one of those awful Americans!).

Seems like the same thing is happening here. Everyone loves to hate on mainland Chinese, especially Taiwanese folks, and so if Japanese people want to discriminate against Mainlanders it's totally fine EXCEPT if they happen to lump Taiwanese people in the same group! Pfft.

[dtcamero]

ya in the 80s when lots of americans and japanese first got a bit of money and started travelling, it was the same thing for those countries.

china will out grow this too, but it may take a bit longer as there are so many of them.

[stapler]

I thought this was going to be about learners being ashamed of how poorly they speak despite years of effort! (yesterday someone asked me how to say "this room is crowded" and the most I could spit out was 這間房子裡擠滿了..." Sigh. Getting from "translating English" to "speaking Chinese" is so difficult! (I was told the correct way to say this is something like 這房子擠滿了人" or something along those lines. Maybe not being able to remember the corrections is part of the reason why my Chinese is poor -_-)

 

- side track rant over -

[Joshmakesnoise]

I personally think this kind of thing is completely stupid and yet annoying.

 

I had an experience in HK with my mainland chinese friend in which we was walking down the road speaking in Mandarin, we ended up stopping at a very small street food stand where the people there couldn't speak english. The way they treated my friend for being a mainlander was completely out of order but they was so happy to try and tell me how good my chinese was.

 

I went on to tell them how most Hk'ers believe themselves to portray a "western attitude" yet find it so difficult to accept certain nationtalities. For the sake of face and langauge, it's fairly sad considering that the majority of westerns won't be able to differenciate the difference between someone from HK and Mainland China if they were in the west.

 

Not that I'm saying in the west there isn't racism and discrimination but it's now to the point where a lot of my mainland friends don't wanna speak Mandarin in HK. I find that upsetting that certain people there can be so rude and againest a neighboring country just because a few local people from mainland go there and are rude and create a slightly bad name for the rest of the people.

[Kenny同志]

I find this sort of articles irritating, if not offensive. I wish it could be widely understood in Hong Kong and Taiwan that the mainland has a population of 1.4 billion people so it is probably not very sensible to judge the whole nation by several unpleasant experiences. If anyone chooses to deliberately disparage mainlanders constantly, that does not make that person or people from the region to which that person belongs superior to mainlanders.

 

One more thing I would like to say to those from Hong Kong and Taiwan: If you hate the CCP, that’s perfectly fine. But please don’t shift your anger towards 百姓 on the mainland by portraying them unfairly or demonising them.

 

 

Not all mainlanders are nasty people:

2015-01-01期 完整版：[第1期]目睹流浪汉进店遭驱赶 你会怎么做？

http://v.qq.com/cover/2/277fw3a8tzar4v2.html

2015-04-09期 完整版：[第15期]路遇清洁工摔倒 你会怎么做？

http://v.qq.com/cover/g/gnqv80ur0eiyz7z.html

[eslang]

+1 agree with Kenny

 

It could be that some people cannot read and understand Japanese news, but there are other encouraging and positive news like

 

青春クローズアップ　「変顔」でつなげたい！中国と日本の未来・・・　江玉さん

https://www.ryukoku.ac.jp/about/pr/publications/72/03_closeup01/index.htm

 

小学男児が淀川に転落、通りがかりの中国人留学生が濁流に飛び込み救助

http://girlschannel.net/topics/47536/

 

I find it is a matter of perspective and whether they can choose to think for themselves, or did they get sweep away by emotions, making prejudice bias and stereotyping.

[dwq]

the mainland has a population of 1.4 billion people so it is probably not very sensible to judge the whole nation by several unpleasant experiences.

Perhaps it is not sensible to judge by hearing several anecdotes, but presumably those people in the article have some direct unpleasant experiences that caused their change in behaviour.

It probably takes only one or two personal unpleasant experiences to make a person take avoidance measures, I'm not sure if that count as judging, and even if it does it seems perfectly sensible to me.

[geraldc]

I'm guilty of doing my best to stand apart from large mainland tour groups when on holiday. 

 

I think a large part of the problem is that the tour guides should point out when someone in their tour party does something wrong, but the way they are paid in tips, they just keep quiet and hope for a tip at the end of the tour, rather than confronting the bad behaviour and getting no tip.

 

Short haul flights across Asia have definitely become a lot more boisterous now that more mainland Chinese are flying.

 

If I was a better person, I'd sit down and try improve my mandarin so I could explain the transgressions, however most of the time, it's just queue jumping, so I just shout out "Hey 排队!" and then look around pretending it wasn't me who shouted it. If you really want to see some quality mainland queue jumping on an almost daily basis go to Vienna and see the queue jumping when it comes to getting tickets before the start of the various Mozart Concerts. Again it's one or 2 people's actions reflecting on an entire nation, but what can we do?

[carlo]

Same for my (mainland Chinese) wife here in Hong Kong. She says she would rather speak English in public, although that is apparently no longer necessary when I'm around (I do my best to further confuse things by speaking only bad Canto).

 

Many have never experienced being part of a minority. They may get their first taste of this as tourists, or when they move to other countries to find work. Understandably, most people just want to go on with their lives and be as inconspicuous as possible -- which, ironically, sometimes requires speaking English.

[Kenny同志]

It probably takes only one or two personal unpleasant experiences to make a person take avoidance measures

 

 

I believe pervasive prejudice against mainlanders in the HK media is also a major contributing factor.

 

A typical article:

 

http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/supplement/columnist/%E6%9D%8E%E7%B4%94%E6%81%A9/art/20151128/19390607

 

 

家教問題

 

坐飛機，若是附近有一個大陸兒童，隨時煩死你。不知為什麼，現在的大陸兒童總是尖叫着說話的，高興不高興，都要大聲尖叫出來，也不知為什麼，他們的家長都好像聾子一樣，任由他們尖叫說話，連「噓」一聲都不會。

 

於是這一程飛機就像個噩夢，那孩子只要一開口就如有人用刀往耳朵裏刺，儘管旁邊的乘客個個側目，那孩子的父母卻若無其事。越是坐商務艙頭等艙的孩子越是如此，不知是否可引證如今中國越是有錢人越沒有家教？

 

尖聲大叫的中國兒童也不僅僅是在飛機上，在中國大地各處，你都能碰到他們，吃飯會碰到他們，逛街會碰到他們，前兩天我在上海一家著名的五星級酒店的電梯裏也碰到兩個，從一樓一直尖叫到三十六樓，尖叫着說要去泳池游泳，我瞪着看他們的父母，那對男女若無其事。

 

於是你便想像這些沒有家教的小東西以後被他們的有錢父母送去外國讀書，不知天高地厚也到處尖叫，結果自然繼承了他們父母曾經受過的白眼，若是由此感悟，那便是西方教育的功德，要是不知不覺，繼續不懂天高地厚，則可能引來殺身之禍，就像飛機商務艙裏被一個尖叫說話的中國兒童，吵得腦袋發脹不能入睡的乘客，都想把那個孩子連同他的父母扔下飛機！

 

於是便知道，中國千頭萬緒那麼多問題，有一大半是家教的問題。

 

我氣憤不過，給作者去了一封電子郵件：

 

李先生：

 

聽聞您也是出生於大陸上海，不知為何對大陸兒童如此痛毀極詆。

 

大陸地廣人密，兒童何止千萬，因遭遇幾位頑童，遂斥所有大陸兒童無家教，其邏輯之荒謬，明若先生，焉有不知之理哉！

 

以先生之邏輯，美國頑童有以BB槍為惡作劇者，傷人損物，為害更劇，又當作何結論？

 

先生不以中國人自居，我無權干涉。發表對大陸的看法，也是每個人的權利。但請您在批評大陸之時，尊重事實，講求邏輯，莫學某些港人，為批評而批評，嘩眾取寵，以為樂。

 

[Flickserve]

I agree with Kenny's last point and it's come to a point where people in HK have lost sense of perspective of reality. There has been some unjustified hassling of mainlanders in HK which has shown how hypocritical and confused HKers are. I have had to tell my children that is not the way to behave.

I have this theory that HK people in the past enjoyed a sense of superiority over the mainland (economic, fashion and modernisation). HK people can't come to terms that the tables are turning/have turned. It's just my little theory. As we used to say in London "they can't take it".

There is something about mainland Chinese tourists when there are loads around. When away from tour groups, individual Mainland Chinese tourists seem ok. Well, you do get the odd queue jumper now and then. Having said that, I saw an Australian do that in Singapore Changi airport.

[skylee]

I guess that Mr Li is 李純恩？

I was joking with my colleagues today a la 無間道： “三年又三年、三年又三年”. And here it is on this thread, "the mainland has a population of 1.4 billion people so it is probably not very sensible to judge the whole nation by several unpleasant experiences", "大陸地廣人密，兒童何止千萬，因遭遇幾位頑童，遂斥所有大陸兒童無家教，其邏輯之荒謬，明若先生，焉有不知之理哉！", etc. Those samples are too small, they are not representative. But they are what people outside China see.

But of course, they are not representative. And the bad guy is the CCP. I know.

PS - the original article is about Taiwan people's behaviour in Japan. I am not sure why the discussion has shifted to HK people's behaviour in HK. We don't even speak Mandarin.

[Guest realmayo]

With HK I think: so many people living crammed so close together, all obeying the public rules and regulations, and society works! But if only a few people start ignoring those rules, things would get very uncomfortable for everyone. In the mainland, it's the opposite, it works with everyone knowing that there's a raft of rules and regulations that they can ignore. Indeed if a set of people started obeying them, things might get a bit strange.

 

So society works okay in HK where everyone obeys those kinds of rules, and it works okay in the mainland where everyone ignores them.

 

If I lived in the mainland and saw some HK people come over and were obeying some pointless rules, maybe I'd feel sorry for them, point out that there's no need to follow them. But their behaviour won't really impact me.

 

However if I lived in HK and saw some mainland visitors eating on the subway, I'd be angry, I'd worry that it only takes a few people to start ignoring rules and everyone will do the same. It's not a moral question: spitting, queue-jumping, 热闹-ing aren't moral issues but cultural norms. (In the past English people thought the American habit of spitting in the street was disgusting.) But the mainland cultural norm could be seen by HK-ers as threatening their stability. Whereas the reverse isn't true.

[eslang]

PS - the original article is about Taiwan people's behaviour in Japan. I am not sure why the discussion has shifted to HK people's behaviour in HK. We don't even speak Mandarin.

 

 

Well, the discussion has shifted to "HK people's behaviour in HK" simply because the lurkers and forum users who have read about your blogs and opinions in this forum identify skylee with the Hong Kong people.  By bringing out such topic for discussion, where it is based on a translated Chinese version from a Japanese financial report can be interpreted as disparaging and in a negative light.

 

We don't even speak Mandarin.

Precisely!  I seriously doubt you can read and understand the Japanese language. So why would a person cross-reference something from Chinese translated version based on a Japanese financial report?    

 

一知半解是很可怕的事! 

[geraldc]

I think it's just that HK is a flash point, as it gets more exposure to mainland tourists than anywhere else, and it's the place where the quality of life has been most affected by the influx of mainland tourists (please note I typed quality of life, and not economy). Any complaints about mainland tourists in HK are instantly reported back on the mainland, whereas reports from other countries, as they're not in Chinese don't get as much coverage.

The story about the mainland tourist getting beaten to death for not shopping enough in Hong Kong raised a lot of anger among Hong Kongers, as the tour guide was mainland Chinese, not Hong Kong Chinese, but it was the image of Hong Kong that took the blow.

[skylee]

I seriously doubt I can read and understand the Japanese language, too, hahaha.

[dtcamero]

at least the taiwan or hk crowd has some connection with mainland chinese and ought to know better. for japanese people a huge amount of their connection with china comes from these badly behaved tour groups. if you've never been to china it is very easy to have a generally negative impression of the country when you keep encountering huge numbers of that country's worst possible representatives.

 

a thai girl's impression of japanese and chinese travellers on a train (japanese only i'm afraid)

http://heaaart.com/post/33566

 

a recent dust-up in germany over chinese-only train cars:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3216086/Swiss-rail-firm-launches-separate-trains-Chinese-tourists-locals-accuse-crowding-corridors-spitting-floor-inside-carriages.html

 

i guess the problem is money making uneducated people into jerks, giving them assumptions of privilige...in any society.

 

I remember once while skiing in the alps as a child, at one point my family and I were waiting in line for a ski lift. all the skiiers are lined up sideways, ever shuffling sideways towards the lift. suddenly out of nowhere an italian couple in matching bright yellow skisuits flew in at high speed across the skiis of everone waiting in line, right up to the front and got onto the next ski lift. at that time in switzerland, everyone hated the italians, lol.

[lips]

「今年女兒特別交代我們，說中國觀光客大增，在人前盡量不要講中文。」

This is wrong on so many levels, I wouldn't dignify it by commenting.