Some noob questions. Self learning, tones, different dialects etc

[Lumbering Ox]

I've gotten to 1450 Kanji in Remembering the Kanji but am now thinking I should have done Chinese for various reasons.

I didn't before because tones seems too much. If it makes a difference I am 46.

 

If I had an instructor or some Chinese friends it wouldn't be so scary but alas I don't.

 

Are tones really that hard to figure out and use.

 

If I were to go with an audio heavy system post RTH [i love the remembering the X series] like Chinesepod or Chinesepod101 and focused on speaking along with the audio clips with tones and listening for them [as well as shoving vocab into Anki and picking up any grammar and writing things out of course] should that be sufficient in the fullness of time to get decent enough to understand and speak well at least in terms of tones and pronunciation... or as well as a Canadian white dude is going to get.

 

I'd hate to start down the path and find out 2 or 4K hours later that nobody understands a thing I say and listening to anything is confusing as hell. I might as well stay with the Japanese. I've heard a story of a South American who couldn't get anywhere in Chinese while living there and is now doing quite well in Japan with Japanese, I don't want to find myself in that position.

 

I figure I might want to go to Taiwan a few years from now but even if I don't go, I figure there are always movies to watch and local people around to perhaps speak to. I hear that Standard Mandarin is starting to go side by side with Cantonese in overseas communities and there seem to be a lot of mainlanders from more northern areas coming over compared to the past.

 

 

More questions.

How different is spoken Putonghua from the Taiwanese Mandarin.

If one wanted to do the HSK or the TOCFL, is there enough of a difference between the two to cause a problem.

I've heard that Chinesepod has switched from using the first to the second, is that a problem.

Do Chinesepod or Chinesepod101 use traditional or simplified characters. Does anyone know what flavour of Mandarin CPod101 uses?

Is it better just to go with one of the standard text series to start vs using them later on if I have a concern mostly over tones.

 

Also it seems to be a thing where you very quickly lose tones if you don't use them very often, quicker than you lose other language aspects. Any truth to that.

 

[Ruky]

Wow congrats on learning 1450 Kanji!

 

It will be very difficult to learn Chinese without a native speaker to offer you corrections on your tones and pronunciation.  Especially when beginning to learn, so that you can get the pronunciation down. So I would recommend using tutors and language exchanges online such as Italki.com.  

 

I subscribe to Chinese pod and I believe they now use Taiwan actors.  I don't hear much of a difference and the dialogues are simplified characters with pinyin.  I would use ChinesePod along with a text series at the same time, because sometimes their grammar explanations are more limited than a textbook.

 

I don't think you lose tones, but I have noticed that sometimes I will mix up the tones of words due to forgetting.  Tones are going to be difficult, but I don't think their something to get scared about.  For me they're part of why I love studying Chinese.  

[Michael H]

I think you need to clarify your goals. Why are you interested in learning Chinese, and what do you plan to do with it?

 

In your study plans, you have questions about characters, but you don't mention reading at all, except for possibly looking at textbooks to learn about tones. Also you asked about standardized tests, but why would you want to take them? Are they milestones to motivate you, or do you want to qualify for something?

 

Anyway, I think almost anyone would benefit from some textbooks and some time with a tutor.

 

I think the tones are straightforward in theory, although in practice it can be hard to remember which tone you are supposed to use, and it can be hard to hear the tones when people speak quickly. But if you ask me what is hard about Chinese, I think it is the characters much more than the tones. Awesome, but hard.

[Lumbering Ox]

As for the tests, more of a motivator/milestone/some more paper to put on the wall. I don't need them to qualify for anything. [Well maybe the DELF/DALF but that is the French and for another forum and time]

 

What I want to get out of Chinese aside from the tests

1: Perhaps to live in Taiwan for a bit. Probably as an English teacher as I although I don't need the income, I do need a visa and they as far as I can tell don't have retirement visas and being a permanent student can get a bit pricey and beyond my budget.

1a: I know myself well enough to know that if my Chinese is not at a high level then I'll just get lost in the foreigner bubble. I'll have a few years to go before I'd make the move so I got plenty of time to get up to snuff. I don't work and have no actual life here. So plenty of time. My father is 83 and I'd like to stick around till he goes to the great beyond, triple bypass and a valve replacement aside he is in OK shape and comes from a family of very long lived people.

2: I currently live in Canada and figure to return some day so it would be nice if I could get some use out of the language. Omni TV has news in Mand and Canto and Chinese language movies on a regular basis. Also lots of Chinese people in the bigger centres. This is one of the things that is making me think I'd be better off with Chinese than Japanese, not being an Otaku.   

 

I was at this moment thinking of using textbooks more to flesh out the language knowledge, grammar, extra vocab, not to pick up tones. I figured the more audio centric courses would be better for tones, the pods. I am also under the impression that pronunciation is something you want to really get right from the beginning.

 

As for reading, I'd figure it more as a path to learning the language, from what I hear it is a good thing for picking up grammar and vocab. I've read fortress besieged recently and a few of the classics a very long time ago but it isn't a drive for me. I am a reader, I just am not familiar with that literary scene. If I were living in Taiwan I'd rather not be an illiterate of course.

 

After my experience with Remembering the Kanji and ANKI, characters don't scare me at all. I never thought I would be able to do it, never thought I'd make it past the first 12 sample chapters as I've had bad history with second languages but here I am at 1471 out of 2200 now, usually running 95% correct.

My only problem with characters is that I need to hit the zoom on the computer a few times to be able to tell what it is. Sadly I have trouble with fine print in English now, perhaps 46 is too much to expect to be able to avoid reading glasses.

 

What scares me about language is grammar and again with the tones. I don't want to start the project and find out that because of tones I can't really function after investing a lot of time into it. They seem very difficult to tell apart unless they are spoken slowly and in a very exaggerated mode and from I read on these forums, they seem important. Can they be self taught. If I win that 700 million dollar Powerball I can hire someone to stand over me with a rattan sword and smack me everytime I get something wrong but that isn't likely to happen.

[li3wei1]

I would get a good intro textbook, I think people have recommended Integrated Chinese, but I haven't used it myself. Make sure it comes with audio material, most of them do nowadays. Work through that, with about an hour of tutor time from italki or similar for every 4-5 hours you spend listening, repeating, and studying from the textbook. Plan your lessons so you get most value out of them; at the beginning they should be focused on pronunciation. Your character work will give you a head start, but you need to fill in the pronunciation and grammar.

 

Alternatively, look around for a class, there might be a Confucius Institute or adult education center around you that offers courses.

 

Good luck and have fun.

[Shelley]

I would also suggest a text book, I use New Practical Reader (version 1), this has textbooks, workbooks, mp3 audio, and video on Youtube. It is good for the selfstudyer and you can get an answer book for the workbooks to you can check your work.

 

I would agree you should do lots of listening but also lots of speaking, even if it is only to yourself There is this great little app I use called Hello Chinese - Learn Chinese. This has exercises for writing, reading, listening, grammar and speaking - you speak and it marks your attempt and prompts you to do it again if you get it wrong, there also a more intense speaking section that is less forgiving and makes sure you get it right. It is free, no ads, no in app purchases, have a look here http://www.hellochinese.cc/

 

I would also suggest Pleco, this is a dictionary, flashcards app that has also got much more that that. I would very highly recommend Pleco flashcards over anki for chinese, because of several reasons, one is it is very easy to add, customise and review cards There is so much to Pleco that it too much to go into here. It is a very reasonable price for the basic bundle and when you know more about what you might want you can add extras. There is a lot about Pleco on these forums. Also have a look here http://www.pleco.com/

 

if you are interested, have a look at my blog where i discuss My Learning Materials and how I use them. Also the edX course I took, you might want to look at on line classes, the edX ones are free, and you can do courses even if they have finished but you can't get a certificate. http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/blog/108-my-chinese-learning-blog/

 

Don't be put off by the tones, just consider it part of the pronunciation and don't make it a separate thing. That's what I do, I have a terrible ear for music and can barely carry a tune in a bucket but I manage.

 

Welcome to the forums, joining the forums is a first good move and you will find lots of good advice, help and fun here. Remember if you start learning and really can't get on with it you can always stop, but if you have managed to learn that many kanji then I think you will make a good effort.

 

 

 

 

[renzhe]

Are tones really that hard to figure out and use.

Yes and no. In isolation, they are a simple thing and most people quickly get the hang of them. The difficulty is in using them naturally in everyday speech, and this is where lots of speaking practice is needed.

How different is spoken Putonghua from the Taiwanese Mandarin.

Not very. It trips up beginners who are new to the language, but once you speak one variety, the other one is 100% intelligible. For this reason, many people suggest sticking with one of them in the very beginning and then increasing exposure to other pronunciations once the basic phonology is settled.

If one wanted to do the HSK or the TOCFL, is there enough of a difference between the two to cause a problem.

I don't know, but HSK seems to be the gold standard, and the most widely accepted test.

I've heard that Chinesepod has switched from using the first to the second, is that a problem.

Nope. The Taiwanese standard is slightly different from the Mainland one, but it still differentiates all phonemes clearly. Speakers in educational materials usually have good pronunciation.

Just be careful not to start with heavily accented speech (this exists both in the Mainland and in Taiwan) from the very beginning. Develop an ear for the standard language (of either variety) and then move to non-standard speech later.

Is it better just to go with one of the standard text series to start vs using them later on if I have a concern mostly over tones.

I had no problem using several textbooks at once. Especially in the beginning, there is much overlap and it helps reinforce basic concepts. Textbooks should not disagree over tones, but do keep in mind that there are some tonal differences between Mainland and Taiwan standards, so it helps to focus on one of them in the beginning.

Also it seems to be a thing where you very quickly lose tones if you don't use them very often, quicker than you lose other language aspects. Any truth to that.

Yes. Tones are not complex, but are unnatural to most Europeans. We are not used to listening for them and have to constantly remind ourselves to apply them when we speak.

This makes them the first thing to go if you neglect them. Like most things that take long effort, they do come back once you go back to studying.

[Lumbering Ox]

Thanks, I feel like I have a much firmer grasp of the situation.

 

HelloChinese sounds exactly what I am looking for, especially with the ability to test and correct speech. At least to start.

 

Any other free resources that are focused on pronunciation and tones?

 

I was under the impression from many months of lurking that Chinesepod had a lot of respect in these parts but it seems based on this thread that the text books get all the love. I don't mind going the textbook route especially if there is plenty of audio support and am willing to take the advice. Just a bit surprised.

Should I not bother with the pods? Use them only as graded level native material sources?

Back during the summer before I started RTK I was trying to decide among Hindi, Chinese and Japanese thus the lurking.

 

Pleco, any idea how much it would cost, it doesn't seem to say on the webpage.

 

I live in a town of 50K people. All we have is French, Spanish and a single Italian course. The nearest is an hour away. I bit much for a regular course.

I'd consider face to face but one quote I saw was 45 bucks an hour for a 15 hour batch plus the 200km of driving each time which is a bit rich for my blood. Maybe later on when I have invested a lot of time in the project for finishing off purposes.

italki, what sort of rates would I be looking at there. Not a huge fan of talking over Skype but I suppose I can suck it up. Also is there any quality control? I am in the situation where I being a noob wouldn't be able to judge much of what I'm getting.

 

So I am guessing the best route would be

1: RTH combined with Hello Chinese to start on pronunciation especially. [i know RTH isn't popular but I find there is nothing better for learning to write from memory and recognize a character for everything else there is something else]

2: Texts, continue with HC

3: Native Material +exam prep material [HSK or the other one] + random other books to bump things up

[renzhe]

I don't mind going the textbook route especially if there is plenty of audio support and am willing to take the advice. Just a bit surprised.

It's not one or the other. It's a combination of all good material you can get your hands on.

ChinesePod is good (well, it used to be while I was using it, I stopped following), but it is only a part of the puzzle. You will need a combination of reading, writing, grammar explanations, listening, talking, pronunciation practice, etc.

No MP3 course alone is likely to make you fluent in Chinese. Many of the Chinese-learning podcasts are awesome, though, and you should make them a part of your study plan.

[Michael H]

If I recall correctly, Pleco is just a couple of dollars, plus something like $15 for the handwriting recognition package. This is an indispensable tool for me.

 

If you'll allow me a brief digression from Chinese advice to general life advice: Dude, get some reading glasses! Unless there is something seriously wrong with your eyes, there is no reason why you should have to struggle to read Chinese characters or English fine print. You will probably see a major improvement from generic reading glasses which you can buy for $10 in a pharmacy, and you might further benefit from prescription reading glasses, which require a 15 minute painless exam and might cost $100.

[Shelley]

This is a link to the pricing page from Pleco's website http://www.pleco.com/androidpricing.html

This is for Android there is also pricing for iOS on the website.

 

As renzhe says its a combination of things will be the best way to go. I would try a few things and then formulate a plan with the things you like, and remember some study everyday is better than lots on one or 2 days.

[Lumbering Ox]

So Traditional or Simplified.

As I understand it, the standard courses and RTH come in both.

My Japanese efforts would pay off more in the Traditional world

I hear it is margonally easier to go Traditional to Simplified than the other way around.

All these resources Pleco, the pods, HelloChinese etc, are they Simplified or Traditional.

I am half guessing Simplified which would seem to suggest it is the way to go to start with.

 

 

 

The fine print thing only comes up a few times a year, the character thing applies for the more stroke heavy ones and well, considering I am still at the RTK stage it isn't an issue yet. I can read the stuff on ANKI no problems. I don't disagree with you. Quite frankly I could use an updated prescription on my current glasses.

[Shelley]

Pleco, hello chinese, and NPCR are available in both.

 

If you are going to Taiwan the learn Traditional, if you are going to the mainland learn Simplified.

 

As the main difference is the characters I am not sure how much difference there between the pods as these are audio, I do know there are ways of speaking that are different depending on whether you are in Taiwan or China.

 

So pick one and go with it, once you know one it is fairly easy to see the differences and it is easy to live with.

 

Edit: I would have to second "the go get reading glasses thing", once you realize just how much you have been missing you will never regret getting glasses. I have had to wear glasses since I have been 8 and now I am 58 and have just had to go varifocal and wow my reading experience has now become a joy instead of headache inducing task to dread.

[Ruky]

On Italki you can look at reviews of teachers and also the teacher's qualifications. Also look for teachers that have had students that keep coming back and taking lessons. I've taken over 50 lessons with some teachers. Italki also gives you free credits for a couple lessons. Teacher prices are 6$ for the lowest priced teachers and most are 10$~15

Pleco has some traditional character support. Chinesepod seems to be only simplified. I really like using Chinesepod and you can sign up for it and cancel if it doesn't work for you. I would base your decision on whether you're interested in talking to Taiwan or the mainland. Ultimately you can learn both systems rather easily. There are more resources in simplified.

[Shelley]

Pleco's website says full support for both traditional and simplified, not just some. Check their website to get all the details.

 

If you want a free interactive course you might like to try the edX course Part 2 starts Jan 18 2016. or you can go and do the first part as a self paced course.

 

Some info here http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/50261-edx-basic-mandarin-chinese-course-level-2-starting/

 

Follow the link to their website for more info.

 

[Lumbering Ox]

Although I'd be more inclined to try Taiwan over the mainland if only due to the pollution issue which seems severe except for some of the Non Mandarin or very non standard Mandarin [there is no way I'll start with Cantonese and their many more tones], the availability of learning material is also a factor. Especially if I can pick up the other pretty easily. I doubt if I will be going anywhere for the next 4 or 5 years if not so. Plenty of time to pick up an extra script.

 

I just checked, seems there is a setting in Chinesepod to use Traditional characters. Lesson settings under my account. I assume it works.

[lips]

 

[stapler]

my 2c...

 

Traditional vs Simplified

You shouldn't worry about this. Once you get past the basic level of Chinese learning both is quite easy and I would even say recommended. I feel like beginners overestimate how different the two writing systems are. I know when I first saw traditional characters after starting with simplified that they looked completely foreign. But that's deceptive. Once you understand the rules for simplified characters (except for a few characters, almost every character is simplified according to some straightforward rules) they'll feel more like the difference between British/Australian/NZ and Canadian/American spelling.

 

Mandarin vs 'Taiwanese' Mandarin

Pretty much the same as above. Boot and bonnet, hood and trunk. Truck and lorry,  mobile phone and cellular phone. Yes the 'vocabulary' is different for a few items, but nothing that hinders communication. The difficulties you'll face understanding Chinese won't depend on whether someone is from Taiwan or the Mainland but how old they are and how educated they are. Younger, educated, people are easy to understand, whether they're from Xinjiang or Taiwan. Old dialect speakers are impossible to understand, no matter whether they're from Taibei or Beijing.

 

Dialect Regions

Unless you're living in Kashgar on the border of Kazakhstan, or in the mountains in Yunnan, there will be plenty of Mandarin, particularly amongst young people. I've spent extensive time in rural southern China amongst Hakka, Cantonese, and Gan speakers but didn't feel I was more isolated than when I have been in Beijing or Shandong. This is because even in places that don't have running water, young people (teenagers and below) will still generally speak Mandarin, and people under 40-50 will be able to understand it and speak it (ask them to slow down however). Yes, people will use their dialects extensively everywhere, but when dealing with you it'll be Mandarin. Don't worry about what they speak in with their neighbours and their family. Also, personally, I feel like people in the north speaking their dialectical Mandarin are just as incomprehensible as people speaking the southern dialects. If you want to be surrounded by 'standard' Mandarin it's the people, not the location, that's important. Hang around a university, not a neighbourhood back alley restaurant. - And it's the same in Canada, most younger Chinese will be from the Mainland, and older from Hong Kong. And there are plenty from Malaysia and Singapore too, who will generally speak Mandarin (though will probably prefer English over Mandarin or their grandparents dialect)

 

Tones

Most languages (except ones closely related to our own) have things which make them difficult. Tones are difficult. But not more difficult than Japanese grammar and honourifics. I imagine Japanese is deceptive (again, I haven't learnt it, I can only guess) because it seems so safe and easy on the outside: no tones, easily pronounced sounds for English speakers. I can see how this gets some people off guard. But once you get past the simple phonology you see the arcane nature of its structure and bam! Perhaps something similar could be said of Hindi. Maybe you think "oh great, it's an Indo-European language, it must be easier. Oh look, it has an almost perfectly phonetic alphabet. Great. Easier than writing English". And then you learn that "d" and "t" are actually 500 different sounds! My point here? Every language has it's thorny parts. But conversely, every language has it's 'easy' parts. While Chinese tones may hurt, Chinese grammar, particularly spoken Chinese, is relatively easy to grasp (though difficult to master) and once you get a handle of the phonetics (which, compared to European languages, has an incredibly small range), it feels just as easy as Japanese seems to be on the surface. Avoiding Chinese because of "tones" overestimates their importance in contributing to the difficult of the language. Again, once you get past the basics, tones will be much less a problem than being able to construct sentences that native speakers don't find strange. Dare I say it, if your tones are garbage, but your sentences are perfectly grammatical and constructed/phrased the way a Chinese person would speak you'll still be understood in the same way we have to strain to listen to someone from rural Ireland. Conversely, if you speak with perfect tones,but construct sentences that use English grammar, logic, word order, and strange out of place words, you won't be understood at all.

 

All these questions about choosing the 'right' Chinese I feel are a distraction. You should be asking yourself whether or not you're gunna have the gumption to stick it out (same to be said for Japanese, and to a lesser extent, Hindi). These are very difficult languages for speakers of European languages. You should be asking yourself whether you're prepared to spend a decade or more on a language, grinding against a stone that doesn't sand down, and is full of heartbreak. My intent is not to discourage you, but ask whether or not you have enough motivation to study something like Chinese or Japanese. Without living there, or without friends who speak it, without being an 'okatu' or a 'Sinophile', I imagine most lose interest once the scale of the task ahead of them becomes clear. But if you've decided to study Chinese, and have a real passion for it, the only important thing is that you grab a textbook (New Practical, Integrated, Audio Visual, whatever the big name default ones are, they're all the same and none will the miracle solution), Chinesepod, whatever other resources are around and get to work.

[Lumbering Ox]

Traditional vs Simplified. I am not too worried about picking up the second one. I would have assumed that at the beginning stage it would be better to stick with one or the other just to cut down the learning load at the beginning.

 

Actually I am getting more of a grasp of what a cluster fornication Japanese is as you go deeper which has me reconsidering my fear of tones. That was a big reason I picked Japanese over Chinese. I was going to do Hindi but those 4 d and 4 t sounds seemed impossible to tell apart. Also the alphabet both on its own and how they change with letter combinations and how they seem resistant to a RTD solution, Kanji seemed easier.

Thanks to everyone here, I am pretty much over my fear of tones. I just have to rid myself of that last bit of guilt over dropping Japanese and get used to the idea of switching.

 

I know it is a long slog regardless. Almost 4K hours according to that US foreign language teaching gov't institute. [2200 classroom plus study], About the same for the highest levels of the Chinese tests and the JLPT N5 and even those levels are not considered C2 level [and the JLPT doesn't even cover writing and speaking].

Sadly I don't have much else to do and I am looking for a bit of a challenge. If I wanted something easy, I'd go with French or Spanish. I have other deeply personal and motivating reasons to do this which I won't get into.

If I fail, it isn't the end of the world. Not like I'll get cancer, torn apart by zombies or worse being forced to go to a Justin Beiber concert.

[li3wei1]

and whatever anyone on here says, there is no single correct way to study. Try things, drop them if they don't work, come back later, try a bit of this and a bit of that, that's the joy of self-studying. The important thing is to stay motivated and not to burn out.