Shi4 de

[AlexL]

Hey Everyone,

I am using the Pimsleur Mandarin Chinese courses and have just finished set 1. Please keep in mind that I cannot really read characters too well and so I would appreciate it if you could use pinyin when answering. Thanks!

The phrase I don't understand is:

Wo shi dao de (I arrived.)

Wo shi jin tian dao de. (I arrived today.)

How come you don't say Wo jintian dao le?

Is "shi ... de" an acceptable form of past tense? Can I say

Wo shi chi de

For "I ate"?

Thank you in advance,

Alex

[MarkKang]

Wo shi dao de (I arrived.)

Perhaps this one is grammatically correct' date=' although I don't think so. Noone says it this way.

Wo shi jin tian dao de. (I arrived today.)

This one is quite common. It emphasizes I arrived today.

How come you don't say Wo jintian dao le?

You can. The ending "le" is not the same as "sh...de".

Is "shi ... de" an acceptable form of past tense?

It does not indicate tense.

Can I say

Wo shi chi de

For "I ate"?

No don't say that. Say "Wo chile"

By the way, don't rely on Pimsleur for all your instruction. You need to get something else that will teach you about basic grammer structures. The FSI course or Speak Mandarin are both good for this.

[Jizzosh]

(Shi ... de) is a grammatical structure that explains an event in the past that both the speaker and the listener know about already. By using (shi... de), it explains in more detail about the time, place, manner, or initiator of an action.

ni qu guo Zhongguo ma?

wo qu guo Zhongguo. (Now the trip to China is common knowledge, (shi...de) can be used)

ni .shi. gen shei yi qi qu .de.?

wo .shi. gen wo de pengyou yi qi qu .de. .

think of it kind of like a grammatical equation of:

= (object of question) de (de - ties back to the original subject)

so, knowing that the speaker has gone to China, the the inquisitor asks:

= (with who) de (de ties it back to the subject of the China trip)

And the speaker replies:

= (with my friend) de (de, which again ties it back to the subject of the China trip)

I can give more examples if my explanation is still unclear.

[AlexL]

Thank you! I think I understand it now.

There is still one thing I'm unclear on. Can it be used with any verb that both speakers already know about? For instance, is this an acceptable conversation?

Ni chile ma? (Did you eat.)

Chile. Wo chile. (Yes. I ate.)

Ni shi zai nar chide? (Where did you eat?)

Wo shi zai wo nar chide. (I ate at my place.)

Thanks,

Alex

PS: Can you reccomend any inexpensive courses for grammar?

[MarkKang]

As to a cheap grammer text, I can't say.

Mandarin Chinese- A Functional Reference Grammar by Thompson is only about $30.

If your goal is to reach a level of conversational proficiency, you need to go with full course though.

[AlexL]

Like Rosetta Stone? Is that a good Grammar course? I have it, but have not used it yet. So far, I have only used the entire Pimsleur I course and am starting II. I have talked to Chinese friends, and the have taught me things like hui4 meaning "will" as well as "know how to." and so on. What do you reccommend doing once I finish the Pimsleur courses? And can anyone answer my question about chide in my last post? Thank you in advance,

Alex

[MarkKang]

Mandarin Chinese- A Functional Reference Grammar is a book just on grammar.

I haven't looked into full courses in a long time, but I can tell you that these are good-

Speak Mandarin or the DeFrancis course, both published by Yale.

The FSI course.

Your 4 sentences using "chi" in you last post are all correct. In fact, they look like they came out of a textbook.

What you said about your friend teaching you about the meaning of 'hui" you would learn in any good basic Chinese course. You need to get yourself some more materials.

[AlexL]

Thank you, I'll look into other courses. From what I hear, RosettaStone is not too good.

[mlomker]

Alex,

I also started with Pimsleur and it's a fine place to start for self-study. It takes years to learn a language and it's not an all-or-nothing affair. If all you've used is Pimsleur then your first chore will be to learn pinyin. I recommend the program Pinyin Master for that.

If you want to continue self-studying for a few more months then here are a few books that I am working with (I've looked at every book that I could get my hands on and discarded most):

An workbook combining grammar & vocabulary, using pinyin:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764106597

A workbook focused on grammar, using pinyin:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071377646

A wonderful dictionary for beginners that includes classifiers:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0198602588

A beginner's book that I'm working through with a tutor this summer. The audio CD's are worthless, but the cultural insights that Yong Ho shares are priceless (he explains the reasons for certain grammar patterns and usage). For example, he explains why Xia and Shang are used in 'next month' and 'last month' in the chapter on date/time:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0781810957

[mlomker]

Thank you, I'll look into other courses. From what I hear, RosettaStone is not too good.

I bought parts 1 and 2 and I don't think it's worth $300. It's a fine way to learn some vocabulary but it seems to be tailored to the A.D.D. set that is incapable of reading a book.

'shi4 de' is also used to relate adverbs back to the noun that it modifies:

Wode shu shi xin de. (my book is new).

Nide qiche shi bai se de. (your car is white).

**The real question is: "Are we talking about the same 'de' in both cases?" I don't think so, but that's the problem when (like me) you only know the pinyin.

[Glenn]

...(he explains the reasons for certain grammar patterns and usage). For example, he explains why Xia and Shang are used in 'next month' and 'last month' in the chapter on date/time:

My guess is that it has to do with the importance placed on writing in the East, and that above comes before below in Chinese writing. Is that it? Sorry for going OT, by the way.

[mlomker]

My guess is that it has to do with the importance placed on writing in the East, and that above comes before below in Chinese writing. Is that it? Sorry for going OT, by the way.

What he explained is that when Westerners create a timeline we visualize the past coming from the left and the future being toward the right. When Chinese people think about the past they visualize a timeline that goes from the bottom to the top--hence Xia being the past and Shang representing the future.

You also have a point when it comes to writing--perhaps there are multiple cultural reasons for the bottom to top preference.

[johnmck]

The Shi De construct is defined in teh sticky at the begining of the grammar forum

[mlomker]

The Shi De construct is defined in teh sticky at the begining of the grammar forum

I don't doubt that, but the content of that sticky is done in characters (as is much of the discussion in this forum). Those of us who haven't taken college classes (using Pimsleur, Rosetta Stone, or community center weekend courses) have not learned them.

[Altair]

The Shi De construct is defined in teh sticky at the begining of the grammar forum

I don't doubt that' date=' but the content of that sticky is done in characters (as is much of the discussion in this forum). Those of us who haven't taken college classes (using Pimsleur, Rosetta Stone, or community center weekend courses) have not learned them.[/quote']

I tried my hand at giving my understanding of this construction once, but I cannot find the thread. I think some people liked my explanation, but others did not. Here is a "relatively" condensed version of what I posted before. I will omit all the characters.

(Shi ... de) is a grammatical structure that explains an event in the past that both the speaker and the listener know about already. By using (shi... de), it explains in more detail about the time, place, manner, or initiator of an action.

I think this is a pretty good explanation, especially if you like short sweet ones. The only thing that might be a little too simplified is that the "shi....de" construction is not completely limited to past events. It is also used for some "present tense" events.

'shi4 de' is also used to relate adverbs back to the noun that it modifies:

Wode shu shi xin de. (my book is new).

Nide qiche shi bai se de. (your car is white).

**The real question is: "Are we talking about the same 'de' in both cases?" I don't think so' date=' but that's the problem when (like me) you only know the pinyin.[/quote']

It is the same character in both cases. In my opinion, it also serves the same grammatical function; however the reason for its use in the two cases is quite different and linking the two without a deeper understanding of the grammar will be confusing.

In Chinese, "adjectives" come in two sorts. Those that are felt to cover a continuum (i.e., "gradeable or scaleable" adjectives) tend to be used in verb-like constructions. (E.g, Ta1 hen3 da4. "It is big." Ta1 men tai4 gao1 le. "They are too tall.") Adjectives that are felt to refer to all-or-nothing characteristics, such as the ones in the quote above are used in noun-like constructions that require "shi" and "de."

"De" is the Chinese particle that can be used to make other words act like nouns if they are not already nouns. "Wo3 de shu1 shi xin1 de" (My book is new) can be thought of as equivalent to "My book is a new one." The book is put into a pre-existing "category" and is not individually described. Categories are really the equivalents of labels or names and are thus best handled by noun-like constructions. Compare this with "Wo3 de shu1 hen3 da4" ("My book is big."). Here, we are giving an indivual impression of the book, rather than assigning it to a pre-existing or socially significant catergory.

The "shi...de" construction has the same words in common as the construction described above, but is used in quite different circumstances. First, I do not think the "shi" in the "shi...de" construction is a copula linking a subject to a noun predicate. I think the "shi" is referring back to the general situation that the speaker and listener presumably have in common. The word that looks like the subject of "shi" is actually simply the "topic" of the sentence. The "shi" can generally (maybe even always?) be omitted without affecting the meaning of the sentence.

The purpose of the "shi...de" constructions is to highlight the circumstances of an action. It does so by "categorizing" an action according to the attribute that follows "shi."

"Wo jintian dao le" narrates an action. It basically describes what I did today. (E.g., "Today, I arrived.") "Wo (shi) jintian dao de" does not narrate an action. It categorizes a fact known by the listener and speaker by clarifying that it relates to "today." It basically means: "My arrival was today" or "I arrived today."

The reason why the "shi...de" construction generally relates to past events is that it presupposes a fact or circumstance shared between speaker and listener. This cannot apply to the future, since the future relates to predictions, promises, conjecture, etc., not shared facts. When "shi" is used in "future" constructions, the "de" must be dropped. (E.g., wo shi mingtian dao. I am arriving tomorrow (and not today)).

The "shi...de" construction can be used for certain "present-tense" generalizations. (E.g., Ta1 men shi yong4 kwai4 zi chi1 fan4 de. "They eat with chopsticks.") These related to "facts" that are said as if shared between speaker and listener. In my example, we "know" that "they" eat. The only question is whether "they" should be labeled as "chopstick users" or "knife and fork users."

"Wo shi dao de" is not acceptable because there is no attribute and nothing to "label." The fact of "my arrival" is not categorized in any way. I am also not sure if one can say "wo shi dao le"; however, if this is acceptable, it would stress that the arrival really did happen.

One last thing that can cause confusion is that not every sentence that contains "shi," "de," or both together is an example of the "shi...de" construction. These words can interact in other ways or be used independently in ways that seem on the surface to mimic the "shi...de" construction. Sometimes "shi" really is a copula. Sometimes "de" relates to only part of the sentence.