Carbon paper?

[Lu]

This might be one for the 'same thing, different names' thread...

 

Is there a difference between 印蓝纸 and 复写纸? A character in the book I'm now translating uses them both in one sentence, and the way it's used implies these are two things that are very similar but different. From all my googling so far, all I can find is that both mean 'carbon paper'. 复写纸 seems to be the most common term.

 

百度知道 seems to say that in fact, 印蓝纸 is carbon paper (but blue?) and 复写纸 includes some other kinds of copying paper as well (much as all houds are dogs but not all dogs are hounds). But from what I find on the rest of the internet, I'm not sure if that is really true.

 

Does anyone know the difference, if there is any? Thanks in advance for any help!

[TheBigZaboon]

Normally, I would translate the latter term as the copier paper used in a copy machine. However, there used to be a machine called a "roneo", or something to that effect. That may be what the author is referring to.

The blue copy style you mention allows multiple copies of a form or document to be produced by writing on the top copy, with identical images transfered to a limited number of copies directly beneath the original.

The roneo format consisted of two sheets, the bottom one of heavier paper, and the top one consisting of a lighter, wax-paper style sheet with grids like those on hanzi practice writing paper. The writer used a sharp stylus to write on the top sheet, then peeled them apart, and put the bottom sheet (or maybe the top sheet, I don't remember) on the barrel-like drum of the roneo machine. Turning a big crank on the roneo machine allowed as many copies of the same document to be produced as you wanted.

I first ran into this machine in schools and offices in Japan in the '60s and '70s. Whereas I was familiar with carbon paper used with typewriters, I found this method convenient in societies where typing was more difficult because of characters or non-western style scripts.

Photo-copiers, word processing, and personal computers put an end to this technology, but you're too young to remember...

Hope this helps.

[TheBigZaboon]

I just remembered, this was called a mimeograph machine where I was brought up. The Japanese used the trademark name, "Roneo."

In any case, teachers used this to make copies of handouts for students in those days. Probably because it was more convenient than typing. Admin stuff was always typed on those amazing one character type-writers, but roneo was faster, so handouts were "roneod." So it was a common technology in Japan, and so, I'm sure, in China and Taiwan. All the teachers had drawers full of this stuff.

[eslang]

Is there a difference between 印蓝纸 and 复写纸? A character in the book I'm now translating uses them both in one sentence, and the way it's used implies these are two things that are very similar but different.

 

 

Is this the book you're referring to?

 

《沙漠中的饭店》是台湾已故著名女作家三毛创作的一篇纪实散文

http://baike.baidu.com/view/8592160.htm

 

“什么，你居然给我吃印蓝纸、复写纸？”

... ...

“你看，没有蓝色，我是用反面复写纸卷的，不会染到口里去。”

 

 

复写纸 (carbon paper) 俗称 : 拓蓝纸、誊写纸、印蓝纸

http://www.xuzhi.net/d25/1102628.html

 

「现在有数码打印了，蓝纸也就不蓝了。」

http://www.cnprint.org/bbs/archive/index.php/t-169503.html

 

藍圖（英文：Blueprint），港澳地区又称“蓝纸”.....

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%97%8D%E5%9C%96

 

拷贝纸 : copy paper / copier paper

http://www.systranet.com/ja/dictionary/english-chinese/paper

 

Hope this helps.

[Lu]

eslang: yes, that's the book :-) So to your knowledge, is it correct that 印蓝纸 and 复写纸 are simply synonyms?

 

Big Zaboon: thanks for the suggestions. It's true, I'm to young to have ever seen a mimeograph machine, although I have heard of them. The wikipedia article on mimeograph machines suggests that different words were used for the papers in those, but on the other hand from pictures I find that paper looks close enough. I'll keep this as a possible good translation.

[skylee]

I don't think the two terms have to mean different things. It could be a way to emphasise things.

[abcdefg]

An anecdotal reply:

 

In the branch bank I usually go to in Kunming, tellers and clerical support people use old-fashioned black carbon paper. They put a sheet of it between each two pages before typing.

 

But in the post office branch to which I most often go (also in Kunming,) the forms used for sending packages require making 5 or 6 copies. The clerk always reminds me to press hard with the pen. There is no carbon paper per se in these forms; each page is "carbonless contact paper" or "carbonless copy paper."

 

I've heard 复写纸 applied to both methods.

[Lu]

Skylee, that's true.

 

Abcdef: I think the regular carbon paper and the back-of-the-form carbon paper function is kind of the same thing though, isn't it? Although I don't know how that works in Dutch or English.

 

For now I have 'carbon paper and mimeograph paper' (I think the American mimeograph is the same thing as the Dutch 'stencilmachine', but will investigate some more into this. My mom was a teacher in the seventies, she might know.)

[abcdefg]

Abcdef: I think the regular carbon paper and the back-of-the-form carbon paper function is kind of the same thing though, isn't it?

 

Yes, both do the same thing.

[eslang]

eslang: yes, that's the book :-) So to your knowledge, is it correct that 蓝印纸 and 复写纸 are simply synonyms?

 

@ Lu

Somehow you have typed 蓝印纸 this time changing the word-order, instead of 印蓝纸 in the first post. Is it a typo-error? :confused:

Probably those who are working in the publishing trade may tend to be fastidious about the appropriate word being used. (smile)  A blogger wrote about 蓝纸 ("Blueprint") and the use of "CMYK colors" during the process of book-printing for 《图书馆奇谈》

在一本书付印之前，印厂会送来检查字和图的蓝纸，因为这本书分两次上机，所以拥有两本蓝纸，...... 我读完最终的蓝纸，确认无误，......

http://book.douban.com/review/7671759/

From what I understand, 印蓝纸 would mean to issue a blueprint (印制蓝纸) and 蓝印纸 refers to blue-color printing paper (蓝色印纸) in the printing business.  That being said, it seems for literary works, authors are likely to use two-different-words (for the same thing) as a form of pun and wordplay. If the same singular word is being used throughout the passage, perhaps it might become boring or it would not turn out to be witty or amusing.

However, in another literary translation, tracing-paper was translated as 复写纸 (carbon paper) in the Chinese language:

 

村上春树: 且听风吟

然而，这一切宛如一度揉过的复写纸，

(译 - 林少华)

 

Murakami Haruki: Hear the Wind Sing

However, like a piece of tracing paper slipping away,

(translated by Alfred Birnbaum)

村上春樹： 風の歌を聴け

しかしそれはまるでずれてしまったトレーシング・ペーパーのように、

(extract in Japanese)

According to the systranet.com dictionary online, tracing-paper : 描图纸 (中国語).

 

(And the story plot thickens...... adding on to the confusion )

[eslang]

Abcdef: I think the regular carbon paper and the back-of-the-form carbon paper function is kind of the same thing though, isn't it? Although I don't know how that works in Dutch or English.

 

 

It seems "back-of-the-form carbon paper" is kind of like white carbon paper, if I am not mistaken.  Anyway, a picture speaks a thousand words. Maybe try using google search : "(example word: carbon paper in English)" and click on image/picture which display many types of it.  After that, type "(example word: 复写纸 in Chinese)" with image/picture.

 

According to BSGK.net Dictionary

Japanese : トレーシングペーパー, 透写紙

English   : tracing paper

中国語   : 描图纸

Japanese : カーボン紙

English   : carbon paper

中国語   : 复写纸, 炭纸

    

Japanese : 転写紙

English   : transfer paper

中国語   : 复写纸，转印纸

Japanese : ホワイトカーボン

English   : white carbon

中国語   : 白色复写纸

[Lu]

Eslang, yes that was a typo, I fixed it to avoid further confusion. Thanks for the tip on blueprint printing proofs, I had no idea those existed (I've only ever seen or heard of printing proofs in the actual colour of the final product). It's not what's meant here though, I think, but it's useful information.

[TheBigZaboon]

Lu,

I haven't followed this topic closely, but I think I, for one, in my haste to raise my hand and get called upon by the teacher, sent you off in the wrong direction. Looking at all the helpful suggestions seems to be leading farther from your deadline. When I wrote my suggestions, the actual sentence wasn't available.

Now that it seems to be quoted in the thread, I would back skylee's interpretation. I think the speaker is referring to copying paper of various sorts in the same sentence for emphasis, and to allow a way to lead to the more important part (telling about rolling them up with the blue, icky part on the inside so the blue ink doesn't stain his mouth...). So choosing, say, "carbon sheets and copy paper" would allow you to then say "rolling up the blue sheets in the backing to keep the ink off my mouth," or something to that effect. That's where the emphasis should lie, maybe not on the exact definitions of the copy technology. "Carbon paper and mimeograph paper" may be more accurate, but doesn't really flow in English.

This might sacrifice 1000% accuracy in the choice of words in one part of the sentence for 99.9% accuracy of the intention of the sentence as a whole. My experience is that this is a pretty good deal in translation, overall. Of course, if I misread the sentence, I have mislead you again. If that's the case, please accept my apologies in advance.

TBZ

[Lu]

Big Zaboon, thanks. I should have included more context. Here it is, a bit belatedly. Taiwanese lady makes dinner for her Spanish husband:

 

有天我做了饭卷，就是日本人的“寿司”，用紫菜包饭，里面放些唯他肉松。荷西这一下拒吃了。“什么，你居然给我吃印蓝纸、复写纸？”我慢慢问他：“你真不吃？”“不吃，不吃。”好，我大乐，吃了一大堆饭卷。“张开口来我看！”他命令我。“你看，没有蓝色，我是用反面复写纸卷的，不会染到口里去。”

 

I'll fiddle with it some more and see what works best. The deadline is a long way off.