metlx Posted January 21, 2016 at 11:49 PM Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 at 11:49 PM All of the chinese grammar websites I’ve come across say that "除了。。以外，都。。" pattern is only eligible for nouns (between 除了 and 以外), i.e.: "除了 ＋ noun + (以外) + noun + 都 + verb." Can I include verbs? For example: "You do nothing except waste time." ---> "除了废时以外，你什么都不做。" I put 废时 (verb) in there, and there aren’t any nouns. Would this be correct? If not, how else could I say that kind of sentences which include "except + verb + ... + verb"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gharial Posted January 22, 2016 at 12:33 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 12:33 AM 费时 is a verb-object construction (though I think 除了in itself can be used with just verbs, for what it's worth). Here's a similar example, from Pleco: 他除了做饭而外，什么家务活都干。 He does all the housework except cooking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 22, 2016 at 12:54 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 12:54 AM 他除了做饭而外 Surely this is 以? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lips Posted January 22, 2016 at 12:54 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 12:54 AM Usage of 除了 is identical to "except" in English in most cases. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gharial Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:00 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:00 AM @Imron: Not in the version of Pleco that I've got on this Lollipop phone LOL (I even went back and double-checked). If you've got Pleco (which I'm sure you have!), search for 除了and then scroll through the almost two-dozen sentences available for it, it's about halfway down. I was just going by surface similarities, perhaps I haven't given any deeper meanings or usages enough thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:56 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:56 AM If you've got Pleco (which I'm sure you have!), search for 除了 I did that before posting but couldn't find the sentence. Which dictionary is it in? I have the GF, ABC and PLC dictionaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:59 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:59 AM Interestingly, a google search for "除了*而外“ has ~300,000 results (compared to ~11,000,000 for 以外), so although not common, it's not exactly rare either. I can't say I'd ever noticed that structure before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gharial Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:59 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 01:59 AM I just have the free version, so look in the PLC part. ;) I also did a slight double-take at first but thought I'd better quote the example verbatim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:10 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:10 AM None of the example sentences in my PLC use 而外 or 以外. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gharial Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:27 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:27 AM Mine's (the freebie of) Pleco version 3.2.23, recently installed on a cheap-as-chips Huawei Y5 running Android 5.1.1. Have you tried looking in the actual entry for 而外 rather than in all the example sentences (SENT) for 除了? Hope that solves the mystery, otherwise we'll possibly be needing to make a Chinese sentence up about...my or your? LOL unique phone using these very structures! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelley Posted January 22, 2016 at 11:23 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 11:23 AM Just for some confirmation, I found your example sentence in Pleco under the sentences tab. it is as you have written it. I am using a paid for version with the free dictionaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted January 22, 2016 at 11:28 AM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 11:28 AM There's a definition of 而外 as besides / apart from / except in both the ABC and Pleco's own dictionary. New to me, but many things are. I can see PLC example sentences and dictionaries are up to date, so not sure what's going on there. Someone send up the Pleco signal and get Mike in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
li3wei1 Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:15 PM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:15 PM Someone send up the Pleco signal and get Mike in here. would that be the spotlight with the fish-shaped cut-out, projected onto the side of a dreary Gotham skyscraper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelley Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:36 PM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 02:36 PM I had imagined a fire and smoke signals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gharial Posted January 22, 2016 at 07:26 PM Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 at 07:26 PM would that be the spotlight with the fish-shaped cut-out, projected onto the side of a dreary Gotham skyscraper? Cop: What's that? A baguette? Gordon: No, it's a fish. Doubtless sent by that language vigilante who's been running round Gotham trying to clean up the Chinese situation by beating people over the head with a fish. Forensics says it's a type of catfish. Cop: Interesting. You mean the triad situation though, right? Gordon: No, just the problems people have in studying Mandarin. Cop: Oh, tell me about it! Anyway, what's this guy called? Fishman? Gordon: The media haven't come up with a name yet. (A dark figure steps out of the shadows at the far end of the rooftop and speaks in a gutteral, almost incomprehensible roar) Dark figure: 卖内幕杂普利科漫。 Cop: What? Gordon: Guy's clearly gone native, even speaks English using Chinese characters! But fine, we'll call you Plecoman, not Fishman. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 23, 2016 at 02:28 AM Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 at 02:28 AM Have you tried looking in the actual entry for 而外 Yep, the sentence is under 而外. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gharial Posted January 23, 2016 at 08:24 PM Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 at 08:24 PM Great, so Fish I mean Plecoman doesn't need to pull on his Lycra leggings just yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
陳德聰 Posted January 23, 2016 at 09:18 PM Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 at 09:18 PM I don't believe there is a restriction on what can go between 除了... 之外, so all the grammar websites you've read seem to be incorrect. You can put nouns, verbs, and even verb phrases there. E.g. 你除了做事情慢之外，还有很多毛病。 Aside from doing things slow, you have lots of other defects. Also as an aside, 以外，之外，而外 all mean the same thing in this construction and fun fact, 以 and 而 sound similar in Cantonese, differing only in tone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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