Arkansas

[Gharial]

While browsing Pleco (as you do) I noticed that Arkansas has two CC-CEDICT entries, 阿肯色 and 阿肯色州, both glossed as 'Arkansas, US state', and with the latter's Pinyin given as all one word: Akensezhou (please excuse the lack of tone marks).

 

My inclination would be to leave out the 州, at least in informal speech, but it did get me wondering how the "full" version should be written in Pinyin (or indeed in English LOL).

 

Should it by analogy follow the rules given for Chinese place names (e.g. Beijing Shi) in section 2.4 here http://www.pinyin.info/readings/zyg/rules.html , and separate and capitalize the 州 part thus: Akense Zhou?

 

And how should it be written in English, Arkansas state or Arkansas State? (Or is the latter only or mainly in relation to Arkansas State University?). With 'the State of Arkansas' another ("get-out") possibility, of course.

[ouyangjun]

When talking about states in the USA I normally add the 州 to the end.  I feel that when talking to local Chinese it helps adding the 州, because they may not be familiar with all of the states in the US, and the 州 helps make it more clear (my thinking and works for me).  

[lips]

Similarly in English, say Arkansas to people who are familiar with U..S. states, and "state of Arkansas" to others, may even add "U.S." before or "in the U.S." after.  For the university, "Arkansas State" to the former and in context, and Arkansa State University otherwise.

[Gharial]

Thanks for the feedback! I agree with all the points regarding the English, and that the addition of 州 will help disambiguate the meaning of the name preceding it. Any thoughts on how to Pinyinize all that though?

[Demonic_Duck]

Ākěnsè Zhōu, as per the rules of pinyin spelling you posted.

[Gharial]

Thanks DD, that's the choice I was going for too.

 

Here's another (related - 阿 a1 > e1) example, this time from Pleco (i.e. the PLC):

 

法不阿贵。 Fǎbù'ēguì. The law cannot fawn on the rich.

 

Is this unspokenly (" ~ ") a 成语, and thus to be Pinyinized as a whole as per section 8 of the aforementioned rules? "Farbooeggway". That is, little or no point in Pinyinizing it more like Fǎ bù ē guì (and thus more according to the rules for adverbs and objects in sections 7.1 and 3.2)?

[889]

Why don't you look at the far more detailed, and official, Hanyu Pinyin spelling rules set out in GB/T16159一2012?

 

http://www.moe.edu.cn/ewebeditor/uploadfile/2015/01/13/20150113091717604.pdf
 

[Gharial]

Thanks 889, but I think that's essentially the appendix that's supplied in the ABC dictionaries, and it may be missing a few parts (e.g. some stuff on hyphenation perhaps). I'll compare versions more carefully a bit later though!

[889]

I didn't know what resources you were working with.

 

In any event, my ABC Dictionary has an older version, GB/T16159一1996, though with an English translation. Not sure what changes there are with the latest 2012 version.

[Demonic_Duck]

GB/T16159—1996 is the one on pinyin.info. I assume content-wise their English version is identical.

Is the 2012 one really much more detailed, or just more up to date?

I also noticed an error in the definition of “词” for the 2012 one:

“语言里最小的、可以独立运用的单位”

The comma placement implies that it's both the smallest unit and can operate on its own, rather than that it is the smallest unit that can operate on its own.

Kinda makes me doubt the linguistic credentials of the writers...

[889]

There's a description of the changes from 1996 in the introduction.

 

Myself, I'm puzzling why the enumeration comma is used there. A GB standard is a pretty important and formal document with no room for typos, so I assume it's used for a purpose.

[Demonic_Duck]

Important and formal documents with no room for typos or inaccuracies can still have typos or inaccuracies in them.

 

Maybe it was correct all the way through the writing editing process and the inaccuracy was inserted by an overzealous proofreader just before it went to press.

[889]

I guess my understanding of Chinese bureaucracy is that a dozen people would have to sign off on something like this before it's printed.

 

Perhaps none of whom actually read it?

[mikelove]

@Ghairal et al - you shouldn't take our Pinyin readings for PLC as all that authoritative; they weren't part of the original dictionary but were automatically generated by us with hand-proofing for all of the 多音字. So while they are pretty reliable as far as syllables / tones, we didn't have anybody poring over orthography to make sure the spaces were in the right places. (just not realistic for us to do that for 63,000 example sentences :-)

[Gharial]

Absolutely, Mike - I along with probably everyone else will gratefully take a plethora of examples over a more limited but "authoritative" range any day!

[Gharial]

I can't believe I just watched a 9-minute YouTube clip on 'Ink Lines vs Chalk Lines for Log Builders' ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYJHDnYCxo ) to understand the meaning of the 绳不挠曲 (shéngbùnáoqū) apparently partnering 法不阿贵 in 法不阿贵，绳不挠曲. Why(,) Chinese, why?!

 

The only consolation is that I got a kick out of wondering if the rich are potentially a bit crooked, but I guess that wasn't the intention of the inventor of this particular chengyu?