Measure words origin ?

[dwq]

I think a closer analogy in English would be the collective nouns (http://www.herbweb.org/animals-collective-nouns.html). Can you tell me why it is a 'school' of fish for example?

[anonymoose]

Can you tell me why it is a 'school' of fish for example?

 

A quick google search will give you the answer. Seems to have the same origins as the word "shoal".

[Michael H]

It is certainly interesting for linguists to study why languages have the features they do and how they evolve. On would think that most features of language should have some communicative function, otherwise they will atrophy as people get lazy and stop saying them (if indeed saying them serves no purpose). I have a couple of speculations about what communicative function measure words might serve in Chinese, but since I am not a linguist or a Chinese scholar, my speculations are most likely BS. (For example, a one-syllable number followed by a one-syllable measure word may help maintain a two-syllable rhythm, making it easier to identify word boundaries.)

 

One can similarly ask why English has the articles "a/an" and "the", when many other languages get by without them. In the past (as in German today), these articles had endings which gave information about the gender, number and case of the noun following them, which was important when word order was more flexible. Now they only convey the information of whether a noun is definite or indefinite; it is unclear why it is worth saying or writing these articles so much just to convey that little bit of not-so-important information. Are these articles evolutionary vestiges, doomed to wither away? Or do they still serve some other purpose? Maybe they have a disambiguation function, flagging that a noun is about to appear.

 

Anyway, in some cases understanding the logic (to the extent that it can be identified) or evolution of a language is helpful for the language learner. (For example, the conjugation of verbs in Romance languages makes a lot more sense after one learns a bit about how it evolved.) In other cases, not so much. I think that measure words in Chinese are in the latter category.

[boctulus]

 

It is certainly interesting for linguists to study why languages have the features they do and how they evolve. 

...

Anyway, in some cases understanding the logic (to the extent that it can be identified) or evolution of a language is helpful for the language learner. (For example, the conjugation of verbs in Romance languages makes a lot more sense after one learns a bit about how it evolved.) In other cases, not so much. I think that measure words in Chinese are in the latter category. 

 

   

[Michaelyus]

From a philological point of view, this is a highly interestingly question. Classical Chinese of the Zhou dynasty didn't have classifiers, so they must have started at some point between then and now, where all the major branches of Sinitic, not just including Modern Standard Mandarin, have numeral classifiers as a feature. The classifier system exists across most of eastern and southeastern Asia, from Nivkh on Sakhalin to Vietnamese, from Farsi and Bengali (Indo-European languages distantly related to English!) to Kiribati. 

 

In the case of Chinese, classifiers were grammaticalised during the Han dynasty and became established by the Middle Chinese of the Tang. One summary puts it thus:

 

It is likely that the emergence of the Chinese classifier class is a result of both external - the communicative need to classify, identify or individualize noun class and internal factors - and the constructional (phonological, morphological and syntactic) need to correspond with other constructional developments (e.g. verb + complement, serial verb, prepositional phrase + verb) - occurring during the same time period.

 

 

It is of course a "complication" in the language: this has been demonstrated in Chinese-speaking aphasia patients, who do often omit or substitute the classifier, and from comparing brain activity between classifiers and verbal modal particles. But from this neurolinguistic point of view, there is some indication of the "uses" of classifiers. In Chinese, it can help identify the noun in advance, and focus one's attention onto a smaller range of objects. 

[boctulus]

@Michaelyus : very interesting information and links! I will check all! Thank you!

 

This is the kind of help I was looking for

[li3wei1]

In Chinese, probably to a greater extent than in many other languages, the context is very important in determining the meaning, as there are so many homophones, no morphology, and parts of speech are so slippery/blurry. So I think of measure words as added context, to make things less ambiguous. I'm sure there are other features of the language that seem expendable, and this is probably true in other languages as well.

[roddy]

[elementary school teacher] Boctulus and Gharial, stop down-voting each other, here and elsewhere. Go discuss any problems you have with each other by PM and then come back and tell us about how you're friends now[/i'm too old for this]

[boctulus]

[elementary school teacher] Boctulus and Gharial, stop down-voting each other, here and elsewhere. Go discuss any problems you have with each other by PM and then come back and tell us about how you're friends now[/i'm too old for this]

 

What ?

 

Seriously roddy, can you show respect for me and even Gharial please ? this a public forum, isn't it ?

 

---

BTW:  maybe you and many others in this forum are related with education at some level (higher education / master in many cases) but I've nothing to do with elementary school, kindergartens or high schools.  Have you, roddy? (I don't think so)

[Gharial]

But Sir, please Mr Roddy, Boctulus lost no time in PMing me telling me not to be aggressive for downvoting his use of an eyeroll emoticon even though he doesn't seem to know what they mean. And he's now going round sneakily downvoting me at random on other threads regardless of the inappropriateness on those other threads of his downvotes. Sir?

 

On a more adult note, might I suggest that the forums get rid of downvoting entirely? I don't see what purpose it really serves. If members are being snide a**holes (and yes, that can even include me at times) or posting completely inappropriate stuff then I'm sure somebody (hopefully a mod more often than not, as the forums aren't THAT active) will speak up at some point and/or take the necessary action. Upvotes though are obviously fine and help people zero in on popular posts as opposed to potential flamewars. (But hey, how about a Least Popular Posts section, where people can watch the car crashes unfolding? Way to increase the readership!).

 

Anyway I too am getting too old for this sh*t and would, with respect, ask Boctulus to stop with the now-random downvoting. I have also asked that other members vote back up the point I deducted on page 1, but of course nobody is under any obligation to do so, just as nobody was under any obligation to answer B's questions or put up with eyeroll emoticons used for no good reason.

[Gharial]

Roddy, that (post #29) is what you are dealing with. Complete SOH bypass. Good luck with that.

[roddy]

Seriously, I've had messages this morning from BOTH OF YOU complaining about the other down-voting you. There's a very simple solution here, which is for both of you to stop doing it. What do you want me to do, draw up a spreadsheet of who posted and downvoted what and when to decide who started it?

 

There's a lot more I could say. I'm not saying it, because fundamentally it isn't important. 

[Gharial]

Roddy, all I can say is that my downvotes have been made in reasonably (well, at least comparatively) appropriate contexts and for reasonably clear reasons. If you are suggesting that people can retaliate in a tit-for-tat manner regardless of their at times shaky language or not grasping what function certain emoticons have, then frankly I find that quite patronizing, as what you're then essentially saying is that people can post however they like and nobody should take exception to their tone. (I can even envisage a situation where people are downvoted for pointing out rudeness while the rude person walks away unscathed points-wise because the pointer-outer was too scared to just simply or additionally apply a downvote for fear of starting a downvote war. God forbid that anyone should take at-all warranted downvotes like adults). You're a moderator, please do your job.

 

And yes, if it comes to it, you should be comparing the number of downvotes and the contexts they were made in and drawing your own conclusions about who is the bigger troublemaker wherever. Just impatiently saying "All of you pack it in" (as if any impatience is only your prerogative) doesn't solve anything, and I for one will needless to say be somewhat upset if I continue to find completely random downvoting against me while you sit back and do nothing to stop it. It doesn't bode well for the health of the forums, and if downvoting is generally too much trouble to moderate, then like I say why not simply get rid of that (dis)function and have only positive upvoting? What reasons are there for retaining downvoting? What does it actually help prevent, and what does it possibly all-too-easily punish?

 

IME on these forums I get downvoted for taking occasional issue with what is IMHO unreasonable obtuseness or rudeness, but I'm prepared to take those downvotes in the course of whatever discussion (or lack thereof) - I certainly don't take too much exception to downvotes when they're awarded in the actual contexts in question, rather than at random beyond them in apparent "tit-for-tat" childish pettiness. Perhaps a few guidelines for newbie members about appropriate use (if there is such a thing) of the downvoting "system" if not the emoticons would be in order, as it might if nothing else at least get them to appreciate why they themselves might get downvoted sometimes.

 

And please don't hold back from saying whatever else you'd like to say, I mean, it's not like you've struck me as exactly the reticent type before, so why stop now!

[boctulus]

roddy: I'm not here for street fighting..... do you must to (it's ok for me) but I prefer messenger (IM) discussion / warning point / ban instead to contaminate / corrupt this or another thread I try to follow.

 

End.

[Gharial]

Yes Roddy, please remove all contaminating or corrupting posts (including your own) from this thread, as they are all, with the exception Michaelyus' admittedly brill one, completely worthless and did nothing to answer "the" question. This is not a discussion forum, it is just a Q&A forum where any and every reply must answer the OP exhaustively and regardless of tone, yet in certain narrowly-prescribed ways, no differing readings or takes allowed. Thanks. I'm off now to take some much-needed mindreading and politeness-at-all-costs courses, as of course it's only ever me who's really tactless or thoughtless or "funny" or just plain nasty on these forums.