On picking a language. Chinese vs Japanese

[Lumbering Ox]

"Me too, Montreal, at 15 I left and moved to UK with my parents as they didn't like the FLQ, the kidnappings and the soldiers on the streets with guns."

 

I don't remember the October crisis, I suppose I was too busy crapping my diapers. 1 year olds do that right? ;)

I do remember the first referendum and seeing all those OUI signs. Even back then I'd joke that OUI must be a French acronym for get out of Quebec Anglo.

When I was very young apparently my father tried to teach me French but then he would be sent a few months overseas and I'd forget it all. I know my mother never learned anything and I assumed she was the reason my father never tried. I only found out the reality in the last year. Every year I'd alternate between having a French teacher who spoke English and barely passing and one who couldn't and end up failing. Could never speak it although if you gave me time I could sort of muddle through reading the letters the bank would send home when the old man was overseas. I was a pretty stubborn kid when it came to homework though.

 

I left at 13, came back for a visit at 16, I had the impression that was the age when French started to sink in, or at least Franglais.

 

It is a bit ironic that your parents left because of something that never happened again to go to the place where various Irish groups and more recently Jihadists operate.

 

Verbs suck, but from what I hear Finnish and Hungarian are really scary along those lines. I have no idea how they never got listed with Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Arabic as brutal languages. Perhaps because of my RTK experience, I don't fear characters to much. Also I am not sure why Korean is listed with Japanese. Similar grammar but Hangul seems much simpler than Kanji plus 2 Kana systems.

 

I had Hungarian DINKS next door when I was growing up, nice couple but as a kid you don't really figure that out. If I pushed and if there was Anki ;) I probably could have been trilingual when I grew up.

 

 

"Don't know what more I can do to help from behind a keyboard, but remember if you try chinese and you hate it, you can always stop."

 

That is true, it is a thought I've been having. Half of me thinks it would kind of suck to switch only to switch back. However there is about a 65% overlap between the basic Kanji and Hanzi so at least at this stage I am not losing much. Also failure would take a huge load off my language TDL which oddly is a good thing.

At least with Chinese a lot of the suck is up front. Japanese lays DMZ level minefields as you go further in from what I understand.

Grammer, honorifics, some Kanji with insane number of different readings.

 

Actually that last line is probably the most helpful thing in this thread, a very useful reminder.

 

 

"try learning sign language. In the movies, deaf chicks are always hot. I bet it's difficult, too."

 

I assume you are at least half kidding but I went to an all boys school from grade 10 to 12 and one day we had visits from all sorts of groups including some deaf kids including females of which I had pretty much 0 contact in those days of being tortured by my fellow classmates.

There was one girl, I don't remember what she looked like but mein gott and oy vey she was stunning. I remember pale and nice cheeks and filled out her jeans nicely.

[Chris Two Times]

"Boy, that escalated quickly... I mean, that really got out of hand fast."

 

I am very wordy when I write. Try not to take my inability to be concise as some sort of escalation or things getting out of hand.

We cool brah.

 

Sure we cool brah, I thought we were talking about picking a language; I just didn't understand taking that left turn and all of a sudden mentioning Japanese sexless marriages and the whatnot. That was a little wacky, methought.

 

Haha, I felt like using that Anchorman quote so there it is.

 

Again, I would say just pick the language you are most interested in and take it from there. The pieces will fall into place. That's what I have done in my life: first with German, then Chinese, then Japanese, and now back to Chinese. I liked your suggestion of Hindi so that's why I threw Arabic into the mix.

 

Best of luck with things.

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[Shelley]

It is a bit ironic that your parents left because of something that never happened again to go to the place where various Irish groups and more recently Jihadists operate.

 

In 1974 it was the lesser of 2 evils and my parents were British so it was easy to return. I have never regretted it.

 

I hope you will tell us what you decide to do

[Lumbering Ox]

I missed the anchorman quote. I guess I am more used to it in meme format.

 

 

"I hope you will tell us what you decide to do"

 

Always. I am so close to finishing RTK, it would be a shame to quit that now and again about 2/3rd of them will be found in Hanzi. After that I will need to make a decision one way or the other.

[HerrPetersen]

I finished Rtk in 2006 or so and then decided to learn Chinese. While there is a lot of overlap in charachters I would not underestimate the effort it takes to find exceptions, different meanings, different strokes etc. If I were you, I would just try out Japanese to a basic level and then switch to Chinese if you don't like it.

[Lumbering Ox]

Half of me is thinking I should pick the one most likely to make me rage quit. Get it done with, remove the language off my TDL etc.

Thankfully both languages seem to have completely different rage inducing elements.

 

If I did Chinese, I'd start with RTH and other stuff. Give it time to wash the RTK out of my head. Although I half think it would be better to continue with RTK reviews and say do something like hellochinese. About 1000 words, about 180 lessons with voice correction. I would know by the end of that if I could stick it out or not and if not, well I kept up with the RTK.

 

Still trying to figure it out.

[Shelley]

Personally I would not do two languages at the same time. I have trouble sometimes with French invading my Chinese and my French was 40 years ago, not sure how I would manage learning 2 languages especially two so similar but also so different.

 

I have just talked myself into it, yes definitely only one at a time

[Lumbering Ox]

I wasn't thinking of going into actual Japanese. Just keep reviewing the English keyword to Kanji that I already covered. No new material.  I don't know any pronunciations or grammar or anything else about Japanese.

 

I would not have thought it would be a problem to go into the HelloChinese app while doing the reviews. I'd never actually try to learn 2 languages at the same time, this would be madness, I mean Sparta.

 

However I could be wrong.

[Shelley]

Fair enough   Still I would confuse the heck out of myself reviewing Kanji and doing hellochinese.

 

But you know what you are capable of.

 

Enjoy

[boctulus]

I should study japanese for a while before starting with chinese (and not in the opposite way except you can live or you have lived in Japan) because:

 

- You have japanese (Kun) and chinese (On) pronunciation (not sure how accurate is but there is some sound simplification) in japanese language so there is less confusion if you know the chinese pronunciation. 

 

- Chinese grammar is for far easier than japanese counterpart.

 

- In japanese you need to know how words sound to understand kana (mainly hiragana) and of course it's a big part of japanese writing.

 

- The good thing about kanjis is they are just for meaning not sound so every written word (except loan words) in japanese is pure sense but the have many more meanings each one then in chinese (because they were introduced in Japan in a term of centuries so each word has (and have) to cover more meaning than in chinese)

 

 

But for the last paragraph, if you know chinese you can enjoy japanese when you have digested kana (and of course I mean the sounds of thousands of japanese words written in kana)

[Lumbering Ox]

"Fair enough   Still I would confuse the heck out of myself reviewing Kanji and doing hellochinese."

 

I always wondered how someone who knows one but at a non native level switches to the other language.

 

I'd always figured if I learned one to a decent level and wanted to keep it going while learning the other I'd want to separate them with a language with a totally different script, just to let the first set of characters sink in.

 

I don't disagree with you. OTOH Hellochinese isn't that grand of a project and if I finish it, I'll drop the RTK completely before going deeper down the rabbit hole and switch to RTH.

If I drop RTK and go into Chinese and it doesn't work out very well, it would be worse I'd think than sticking with RTK for a while. Risk reduction.

 

Of course there is no way in hell I'd do both RT* at the same time.

 

I think it might help a bit that I'd be learning Hanzi in HelloChinese with actual Chinese pronunciation whereas RTK is pure English so where they are different it will be a bit easier to keep separate.

 

I am starting to learn towards Chinese I have to say.

 

On a different but similar note, I always figured learning a different Chinese dialect would be hard also unless you are pretty much near native in the first one.

[889]

Just as marriage brings not only a wife but also her family into your life, so does foreign language study bring a new culture along with it. I think you should be asking which culture interests you more and which you'd adapt to best.

My observation -- and yes I also tried learning Japanese in Japan -- is that most Westerners find living in Japan frustrating and difficult in many respects, certainly by comparison with China. I think you'll find quite a few Westerners who more or less settle down in China, but it seems rare for Westerners to spend, say, more than four years or so in Japan.

All of which, I suppose, is meant as a bit of a caution, especially if you're thinking of heading to Japan.

Finally, since nobody's been rude enough to mention money yet, I'll remind you that Japan, even with the fall of the yen, is a very expensive place. If you're on a budget you'll probably find life in China far more comfortable.

[Demonic_Duck]

My observation -- and yes I also tried learning Japanese in Japan -- is that most Westerners find living in Japan frustrating and difficult in many respects, certainly by comparison with China. I think you'll find quite a few Westerners who more or less settle down in China, but it seems rare for Westerners to spend, say, more than four years or so in Japan.

Any idea as to why that might be the case?

[889]

I'm no sociologist, but I think Japan is an extraordinarily insular society that keeps foreigners of all complexions at great distance. Of course there's an element of that in most countries, including China, but Japan is in a league of its own.

[Chris Two Times]

Actually, based on my five years in Japan and my nearly seven years in China, I have found it to be the opposite: many foreigners head to Japan and stay put for the very long haul and many foreigners dabble with China for a short bit and then leave.

 

I would suspect that Japan being a more open, developed country would have something to do with it. While Japan is indeed an expensive country, the salaries can also be higher and one may be apt to save more. It is easier for a foreigner to get permanent residency in Japan; if they live in Japan and pay into the system for 25 years, they can collect a state pension similar to social security in the U.S.

 

With Japan one can get a working visa for up to five years.

 

I am in the teaching field and there is a glut of Western teachers in Japan: supply outstrips demand. This hasn't become the case in China.

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[Shelley]

I have a friend who lives in Japan and has done so for the last 10 years and has no intention of returning any time soon. He teaches the Chapman Stick, a novel stringed instrument that is very popular in Japan. He has released several albums and is still very creative. If you are interested have a look at his site here http://www.derekdallenger.com/

 

I think he stays because he is actually likes the Japanese way of life, he doesn't live in a major city and has "gone native" If you expect to live your life as you did in your home country you won't last long. I think this is true of anyone living anywhere.

 

 

[Lumbering Ox]

From what I've read most people split after a year or two and few remain after 5 or 7 years in either the PRC or Japan. I don't really know about Hong Kong or Taiwan.

 

At least with Japan, or the Northern most areas the air isn't toxic. I know that Taiwan and the area around Hong Kong isn't nearly as bad as north China but too many people complain of developing health problems even there that usually go away when they leave. I've only read one complaint about Japanese pollution and that is in the very populated areas closer to China.

 

With Shenzen having an average and max 2.5 PPM of 39.7 131 I would not have thought it would be enough to cause people problems. I can't see Taiwan being worse then that. But there you have it. I wonder what the numbers would be for say Toronto. I know when I lived in Hamilton for 4 years in the mid 90's I've never seen more than a hint of smog, nothing like the pics one sees for even Taiwan.

 

I really don't know how anyone can put up with those conditions. It is one of the major push factors away from Chinese for me.

 

Yesterday I was strongly on the side of switching to Chinese. Last night I was doing pollution research and am now veering back to the other side.

 

Also at least for the mainland, you can throw in food and other product safety issues, general filth [salutes the general] etc.

The teaching racket seems much better there though.

 

As for people, it seems some love both places and some hate both places. Japanese are very insular. The whole real vs external feeling thing means you never know where you actually stand. The knowledge that they will always see you as an outside [welcome to my world]. With China the complaint is that people are only interested in you for what they can get, the Guanzi thing. I've read of some people who after 5 years just start to hermit because of constant disappointments.

Such comments seem to apply to the other country though. The sort of thing that tends to drive people away if they survive the first year or two, something that takes more like 5 years before you turn bitter.

[OneEye]

I don't have any experience with China, but I certainly know more "lifers" here in Tokyo than I did in Taiwan. It could be due to the fact that I associate with very different crowds here (businessmen, investment bankers, lawyers, techies—the "startup crowd") than I did in Taipei (language students, grad students, translators). In both places, teachers tend to stay fairly long-term (not cram school/eikaiwa teachers, but grade school/international school teachers).

 

I know a lot of musicians in both places, and they tend to be long-termers in both places. The difference is that in Taiwan they're ABCs/ABTs, while in Japan they're of all different ethnicities.

[Lumbering Ox]

As for finances. I could live anywhere [well perhaps not HK] without working. Not wealthy but still.

 

I wish one could get a retirement visa like they have in Thailand or the Philippines. I wouldn't mind teaching part time, a chance to intereact with the locals, staff and student. Better for fitting in. I'd hate to do the 25 hour/40+ with prep thing. My budget at least in Japan would be stretched a bit much to do the permanent student thing.

It seems Taiwan is a bit more friendly in terms of part time work and getting a visa or maybe I am reading the situation wrong.

[889]

If you like to eat and will be living on a budget, don't forget that even on a fairly tight budget you'll still be able to eat out every night in China and -- once you suss out the good places -- eat very well.

In Japan it'll be night after night of instant noodles from Lawsons.

(After posting this I saw your intervening post that money's not a big problem.)

Edited February 28, 2016 at 03:00 PM by 889