lips Posted March 2, 2016 at 10:19 AM Report Posted March 2, 2016 at 10:19 AM This was written recently by a judge in China. Would be good learning material for classical Chinese. (Please refrain from political comments if you want to post a response). Edit: Disclaimer: Don't study this. It will take you hours. Only read it if you're an advanced student, and as casual reading only. Quote
roddy Posted March 2, 2016 at 11:09 AM Report Posted March 2, 2016 at 11:09 AM Why would this be any better than anything else written in Classical Chinese. Just because it's been viral doesn't mean it's any more useful. If it is more valuable please explain why - working through something like this could take a student hours. Let them know what they're getting in to... Quote
lips Posted March 2, 2016 at 12:19 PM Author Report Posted March 2, 2016 at 12:19 PM Just thought it can be supplementary reading material for more advanced students, on a current topic, and not something written 2500 years ago. Advanced students should practice to be able to read and comprehend the gist of a passage without understanding and knowing the grammatical functioin and classitication of every single word. I'l edit the post to put in a disclaimer. Quote
Popular Post Demonic_Duck Posted March 2, 2016 at 01:24 PM Popular Post Report Posted March 2, 2016 at 01:24 PM Text version for easier reading/resizing/looking up characters: 辞职信 人生或如登山,仰头望峰高路窄,人云坚持方能登顶;又或如掘井,扶锄立石坚泉微,告己专注才可得金。入职岳法十载,不可谓未坚持,耕耘民商一线,不可谓不专注,诚惶诚恐,未敢失却初心。初则喜正义之伸张,乐法律得施行,不屑媚俗,安于清贫。久矣疲命于杂务,掣肘各情形,荒于教子,未尽孝心,今已累案牍,显劳形,业务未见精进,激情日渐消弭。虽不惧司改,夺员额有信心,然不思钻营,伫山底久矣,再十年当仍如是。年逾不惑,细思极恐,忧年华不再,登临无期,趁惰形未成,愚勇尚存,下决心,舍法槌于公堂,求自在于市井,不褒獬豸,不辱女神,既往不悔,当下不疑,未来不迎。 恳请领导准予本人离职。 6 Quote
stapler Posted March 2, 2016 at 09:59 PM Report Posted March 2, 2016 at 09:59 PM Why the hell is the resignation letter written in classical Chinese? Is this a requirement? Quote
gato Posted March 2, 2016 at 11:24 PM Report Posted March 2, 2016 at 11:24 PM Just a personal preference. A little pretentious, if you ask me, but many people are impressed by it, which is why it's making the rounds on social media. It's like using lots of Latin in a resignation letter. Quote
OneEye Posted March 3, 2016 at 12:34 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 12:34 AM 文言文 today essentially functions as a very formal or high register of writing. It's not used very often, but it's perfectly acceptable. Some of my textbooks in grad school were written entirely or partly in 文言文. In fact, the late 陳新雄, who wrote several of the standard phonology textbooks used in Taiwan, believed the 白話 movement was a huge mistake and wrote only in 文言文, complete with 焉哉乎也-type final particles. His books tend to be very long, some of them 800 pages or more across two volumes, all in 文言文. They can be quite a slog to get through, believe me, but his writing is generally very clear and unadorned, so it's usually not especially difficult. Here's a sample passage from 《聲韻學・上冊》, written in 2007: 語云:「莫把金針度與人。」先師常將金針度與我,此一薪火相傳之精神,可以告慰於吾師者,我亦將金針度與吾門下弟子,故今臺灣各大學教聲韻學之教師中,我門下弟子,已佔泰半,皆吾師無私精神之感召也。 One of my professors, 杜忠誥, a famous calligrapher and accomplished paleographer, also has a very 文言-influenced writing style. His writing can be much more difficult to read, for me anyway. Here's a passage from his book on character corruption, 《說文篆文訛形釋例》, written in 2002: 筆者曩在就學師大期間,有幸受教於魯先生,略聞其緒言,或弘闡許說之微言奧旨,或補苴訂正許氏訓解之疏誤。既醇且肆,左右逢源頗受震撼啓發,因而引生筆者對《說文》一書的強烈研究興趣。在大學畢業以前,對於九千三百五十三個《說文》篆文,幾已全能默寫。嗣後,鑽研不斷,既廣泛涉獵甲骨、金文等商、周古文字,又陸續按觸到一些新出土的簡牘帛書資料,乃開始對於篆文形體的隸變問題產生關注。一九八七年春,筆者負笈東瀛,即已〈睡虎地秦簡〉文字爲切入點,針對《說文》書中部分可疑篆文訛形,作過一些關於形體分析的初步探討,撰成《睡虎地秦簡研究》一編。 That isn't strict 文言文, more like 半文半白, but I find it much more difficult to read than the passage from 陳新雄 above due to some of the vocabulary he uses. Also, this is the guy who had me copy all the 小篆 forms from the Shuowen by hand. No surprise there, right? I felt my hand cramping up again while I was reading that passage. 1 Quote
Demonic_Duck Posted March 3, 2016 at 02:30 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 02:30 AM @OneEye: I think the reason the letter has gone viral is that use of 文言文 for practical purposes in mainland China is very rare, unlike in Taiwan. In fact, it's just one of several ways in which Taiwan is more linguistically conservative (traditional characters being the obvious one, but I also dug up an old thread here a while back which made some interesting points about how the pronunciation of Taiwanese Mandarin, aside from being influenced by Taiwanese Hokkien, is generally more conservative). Re the resignation letter, I think it's fairly easy to understand as 文言文 goes. What does “不褒獬豸,不辱女神” refer to, though? Quote
stapler Posted March 3, 2016 at 02:46 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 02:46 AM I guess I'm too much of a democrat (or communist?) to think that writing in classical Chinese is a good thing. It's primary goal is to be exclusive and inspire awe, not to promote communication. And like gato, I feel it's incredibly pretentious; like writing reports in Shakespearean English or Bureaucratese. While it might be fun or cute for an artistic project, using it for formal communication seems elitist the core. I hope it doesn't become more popular. Why did 陳新雄 think the 白話 movement was a mistake? Quote
OneEye Posted March 3, 2016 at 03:51 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 03:51 AM I think the reason the letter has gone viral is that use of 文言文 for practical purposes in mainland China is very rare, unlike in Taiwan. Oh yeah, it's pretty rare in Taiwan too. In fact, I think the only time I've seen it done even in Taiwan is in Chinese literature departments. Taiwanese people do tend to write in a higher register than people in China though, and writing in HK tends to be more formal still, even in emails. That's partly due to diglossia; in HK, they traded one form of writing which was divorced from how they speak (文言文) for another (白話), so it's natural that their writing tends toward formality. Why did 陳新雄 think the 白話 movement was a mistake? No idea. He passed away before I started in the department. Some of his students told me that, but I didn't ask why. Quote
Demonic_Duck Posted March 3, 2016 at 04:09 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 04:09 AM Why did 陳新雄 think the 白話 movement was a mistake? Probably for the same reason that people used to (still do?) argue that Latin is a better language for expressing high-level concepts in an unambiguous way than English is. I don't understand the grammar well enough to back this up, but I do somehow get the impression that 文言文 is better at expressing things accurately and concisely than 白话. I could be way off about this from a linguistic sense, though. Quote
gato Posted March 3, 2016 at 05:17 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 05:17 AM 文言文 is usually more vague than modern vague because the same character can have dozens or even hundred of meanings. It relies heavily on allusions to make its point. But on the plus side, it tends to be more concise and can be more poetic if you know what you are doing. Quote
Kenny同志 Posted March 3, 2016 at 05:30 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 05:30 AM 文言文 today essentially functions as a very formal or high register of writing. It's not used very often, but it's perfectly acceptable. I agree. Below is a letter from Donald Tsang, then chief executive of Hong Kong, to Zeng Qinghong, then vice chairman of the PRC. 國家副主席慶紅先生鈞鑑: 職自就任行政長官以來,戒慎恐懼,自忖不才,故無一日不思量增進香港福祉之事,以將勤補拙,不負國家重託。查香港迪士尼樂園將於本年九月十二日開幕,料可促進本地旅遊,增加香港實力,鞏固亞洲國際都會之地位。飲水思源,當年遊說迪士尼公司在香港投資,國家大力襄助,開放內地居民來港之個人遊,更裨益香港旅遊及相關業務,促進兩地交誼。如今樂園啟用,為銘感國家對香港福祉之關切,故不避冒昧,特函副主席閣下,望考慮於開幕當日來港主禮,以誌其盛。香港迪士尼樂園亦為本地文化創意產業之新猷,開幕當日,料必冠蓋雲集,媒體匯聚,若蒙閣下惠允出席,當使香港同胞暨海外觀眾,得瞻中國當代領導人風采,庶幾有助國威遠揚。 副主席閣下高瞻遠矚,巨細無遺,香港小地,常在心頭。竊思閣下主持迪士尼樂園開幕之餘,可否撥冗出席特區政府酒會,接見香港各界人士,順道探訪地區組織,彰顯國家領導人對香港市民之愛護?副主席閣下胸懷廣大,儒雅出群,香港各界市民仰望,職之函請,亦是體會民眾意願。惟深知閣下日理萬機,來港之事,如何之處,尚請鴻裁。專此函達,順頌 鈞安 香港特別行政區行政長官 曾蔭權敬上 二〇〇五年七月十九日 Quote
Kenny同志 Posted March 3, 2016 at 05:44 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 05:44 AM Quote 文言文 is usually more vague than modern vague because the same character can have dozens or even hundred of meanings. You exaggerated it a little bit but isn't this exactly a problem with English, too? Also we need to remember that when we talk about wenyan, it doesn't have to be texts written 2,000 years ago or so. A great deal of what people wrote during the Qing dynasty and 民國 was wenyan, too. Quote It relies heavily on allusions to make its point. You can choose not to use a single 典故 in wenyan while still able to write with clarity. Quote
OneEye Posted March 3, 2016 at 06:27 AM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 06:27 AM You can choose not to use a single 典故 in wenyan while still able to write with clarity. Agreed. A lot of people conflate wenyan with flowery writing, but that's not necessarily the case. For instance, 陳新雄's writing is very clear and precise, devoid of flowery language and allusions. Academic prose and legal documents tend to be written in a higher/wenyan-influenced register too, and of course in such writing precision is very important. Quote
dwq Posted March 3, 2016 at 01:17 PM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 01:17 PM @Demonic_Duck I have to look it up. https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/獬豸 女神 would be the Lady Justice I think. Also, 细思极恐 in the transcription is 细思恐极 in the picture. BTW, can OneEye or somebody comment on whether the letter is a beautiful example of wenyen or not? It seems to me he's just saying "This job is too burdensome and the future prospect is bleak so I quit", or did I misunderstand? I'd think if the letter is receiving so much praise, it must be showing the 清高-ness or some other nice quality of the writer, no? Quote
somethingfunny Posted March 3, 2016 at 01:33 PM Report Posted March 3, 2016 at 01:33 PM I'm not sure I'd classify this as formal communication, I feel like it's more a case of them taking this opportunity to express themselves through the language they use as well as the content of what they are saying. If they were handing down official court judgements in Classical Chinese, then I think we would have a problem on our hands, but as a bit of fun, or a personal mark on a situation I don't really see the problem. Disclaimer: I have not read the letter. Quote
lips Posted March 4, 2016 at 02:29 AM Author Report Posted March 4, 2016 at 02:29 AM If they were handing down official court judgements in Classical Chinese, then I think we would have a problem on our hands, ... Why is that? As OneEye says above, 文言文 is considered a formal, high register writing style. iI's also considered an educated style of writing. So used for formal communication, though uncommon, is entirely acceptable. It not only shows that the writer is (very) educated, but also respect for the reader. It also conveys the seriousness of the subject matter. One often sees invitations (like the letter quoted by Kenny 同志 above), memorials, or other formal and serious communication written in 文言文, or "half" 文言文. It just reads much more elegant and polite (and often much shorter) in 文言文. Almost all Chinese civilization and culture are documented in 文言文. Most great literature were written in 文言文. It, as least reading of it, is taught as part of the regular curriculum in high school. Most high school graduates would be able to understand at least the overall meaning of a 文言文 passage. It is by no means archaic. Quote
somethingfunny Posted March 4, 2016 at 02:59 AM Report Posted March 4, 2016 at 02:59 AM Most high school graduates would be able to understand at least the overall meaning of a 文言文 passage. This is why not. Specifically "most high school graduates" and "overall meaning". For something like a court judgement, clarity and comprehensibility have to be put first. Is the language ambiguous - could it be interpreted in more than one way? Is it understandable by the people it is addressed to? Court documents in English are going to be full of legal jargon and references to relevant (probably obscure) cases, but at least I'm not going to have to contend with an unfamiliar writing style while trying to work out its meaning. Given that essentially nobody reads or writes in this style of language in modern China, what we're looking at is an exercise in form rather than content. I don't find the resignation letter written in this style 'elitist' but if it was used for official purposes then yes, it would not just be elitist but backwards as well. Quote
lips Posted March 4, 2016 at 04:53 AM Author Report Posted March 4, 2016 at 04:53 AM Court documents in English are going to be full of legal jargon and references to relevant (probably obscure) cases, but at least I'm not going to have to contend with an unfamiliar writing style while trying to work out its meaning.Most high school graduates in the US or UK would also only understand the overall meaning of a complicated court ruling, no different from China. A simple court ruling can be written in simple 文言文 and be understood by a Chinese high school graduate, like a simple court ruling written in simple English.As opposed to a non-native learner of Chinese, a native high school graduate does not have to "work out" the meaning of a clearly written 文言文 article, as he/she would have read many 文言文 writings in school. As mentioned by other members above, 文言文 can be written with clarity and precision, and no ambiguities. The resignation letter, for example, is hardly ambiguous or need to be "worked out" to comprehend. One may have to look up the dictionary a couple times and check the allusion to 獬豸, but it's no different from English when the writer uses an uncommon word and make an obscure reference. The author could have easily expressed the same meaning without the uncommon word or reference. The invitation letter quoted by Kenny同志 is even easier to understand, and without uncommon words or references. ... essentially nobody reads or writes in this style of language in modern China ...Well, 文言文 is read by all students in school, and by anybody studying Chinese history, culture, and literature. Writings in the style of 文言文 are also encountered sometimes in formal communications. Being able to write good 文言文 would be harder and therefore not commonly done in day to day communication. Quote
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