Pinyin is making me a sad little ogre. Hard to tell them apart.

[Lumbering Ox]

So after a few weeks of mucking about I finally started hitting HelloChinese for a second time.

 

It's funny, back when I was first looking into this I figured Tones would be the problem and I remember someone somewhere saying that he found the pinyin much more difficult.

 

I can see that now. Tones, not easy but I can see them being done via time, effort and attention.

 

The Pinyin though. Lard tunderen jasus. Much of it is fine but there are some that sound alike.

Here is the annoying thing. I can tell them apart when I play two different initials or finals [o and ou for example] even if they sound alike.

 

However when it comes to identifying them in the wild my ability goes to crap. HelloChinese had a test at the end of each section and I must have failed it 5 times before I passed. I didn't pass because I got better, as my failure rate was pretty similar every time, I just managed to get lucky.

Often for example it will give you the word and ask you for the pinyin. If there are two initials like say J Q X or Z C, among the answers I won't have a clue. I just can't pick it out even with repeated listening and with a written guide in front of me.

If it is asking for the whole word, often I have to rely on the tone or ending to pick one of 2 options.

In short. I just can't figure out which is which and even when I do get it right, it is because of other information. In effect I could never pass that exam and I seem to be making any progress on it.

 

 

So.

 

Do I just keep going deeper into the lessons, try to speak the audio/pinyin of each word as best I can and hope that over time I'll develop an ear for it. HelloChinese is good for audio, as I understand it the texts have audio and there is always Chinesepod and Pleco and further along there is plenty of programming on TV.

Do I just keep pounding on the pronunciation lesson till it sticks and if so how many hours am I looking at [perhaps a 50/50 split with doing new lessons]

Would it make a difference if I got some 1 on 1 instruction? If so how many hours would I be looking at before I develop an ear for it. Yes I know it varies, but money is currently a bit tight so I'd like to have some idea.

Should I not worry too much about it. I mean I know a guy who uses v instead of w and otherwise has a thick accent but it rarely seems to be a problem for understanding him. On a related note, is it more a problem for speaking or listening.

I'd rather not give up but I get this sinking impression that without being in China I just won't get that immersion needed to fix these sort of problems and will never be able to actually speak/listen to it. So many stories of fail even with people who went through courses weighs on my mind. I have one Chinese friend but often several months will pass before I see her as she is really busy so that is useless making more isn't really possible locally.

[stapler]

 

Do I just keep going deeper into the lessons, try to speak the audio/pinyin of each word as best I can and hope that over time I'll develop an ear for it.

Yes.

 

 

Do I just keep pounding on the pronunciation lesson till it sticks

Yes.

 

 

so how many hours am I looking at

Less than what it will take for you to learn the other parts of Chinese

 

 

Would it make a difference if I got some 1 on 1 instruction?

Yes.

 

 

If so how many hours would I be looking at before I develop an ear for it.

It's impossible to give an answer to this. It depends on the person. If you really want a number: a few hours (in total) over the course of a month - you need time for it to sink in.

 

 

Should I not worry too much about it.

Yes. Everyone has gone through what you have. Everyone who stuck with it can now identify Chinese sounds.

 

 

On a related note, is it more a problem for speaking or listening.

Both. If you can't hear it properly you can't pronounce it properly, and if you can't pronounce it properly you probably can't hear it properly.

 

 

I'd rather not give up but I get this sinking impression that without being in China I just won't get that immersion needed to fix these sort of problems and will never be able to actually speak/listen to it.

This is an excuse/rationalisation to try and explain to yourself why you have "failed". You certainly do not need to live in China to learn the sounds of the language.

 

The answer for you is really straight forward. You need to listen more, you need to speak more, and you need more time. Learning Chinese is a long term project. Learning any language is a long term project. You can't just "study it". You have to develop an intuition for it. An analogy I've heard is that of riding a bike. You can read all you want about the physics behind riding a bike, but reading about how to ride a bike won't enable you to actually do so. It takes practice, time, and persistence.

[Cid]

For me, pinyin comes pretty intuitively. The part that really trips me up though is when two sounds are really similar and the only difference between them is literally one letter. Like "zi" and "zhi" or "zu" and "zhu". I'm not too sure about HelloChinese as i've only used it briefly but ChinesePod's say it right videos really help me a lot with pronunciation and tones. I don't think you could ever go wrong with getting one-on-one instruction. Though i personally feel like it's more effective at later stages when you're able to speak at a somewhat conversational level because they're able to help you speak more naturally much like a native speaker. Keep it up, man! It takes a lot of time and patience but the reward is worth it. Good luck! 

[Flickserve]

It takes time and practice. I listen to the mandarin radio in my car almost everyday just to pick out the sounds. I think that helps. I think the northern Chinese accent is better training which why a while back I was asking for more Beijing accent radio. As a caveat, it is a bit boring listening to incomprehensible input. Perhaps you can set a target of ten minutes in the morning and ten in the afternoon. Just concentrate on listening.

If you have more time, perhaps those slow Chinese podcasts are another good option although I haven't used them.

As for hours, that's a tricky one. Couldn't tell you but for me, hearing the Pinyin went hand in hand with pronunciation drills with lessons. I used a teacher but there is no reason why you cannot use a language partner over Skype. Just ask the partner to look up some Pinyin pronunciation exercises for you and you also can look up YouTube. It might be boring for them but if you make it clear what objectives you are aiming for first, you pronunciation exercises, them conversation, that should be OK.

[vellocet]

Ability in Chinese is equal to hours spent studying.  There is no other metric. 

[Gharial]

It could be that the written guide you're using isn't very good. It's never easy to compare sounds between languages, or to (presumably/hopefully phonetically?) describe those sounds in terms of even just the target language, and some authors simply don't bother enough or make strange choices (perhaps due to having non-standard accents or themselves not quite knowing the correct pronunciations sometimes). It pays to shop around and consult more than one guide if the one you've plumped for isn't cutting it.

[dwq]

One thing you should realize, if you are having trouble with ji qi xi and zi ci si zhi chi shi, is that not only the consonants are different between the two groups, the finals are different too!  You probably get reminded that ju qu xu is actually pronounced jü qü xü over and over but it is easy to overlook the i's.

 

You can see the IPA under Pronunciation of finals in Wikipedia.

[Yadang]

 

If you can't hear it properly you can't pronounce it properly, and if you can't pronounce it properly you probably can't hear it properly.

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

 

I highly recommend the Chinesepod pinyin course, here.

 

Back when I was practicing pinyin, there was a computer version of the pinyin chart. I was able to download it and get access to the 1227 (or so) mp3 files. I put it on my ipod and listened to like half an hour of a1 a2 a3 a4 ai1 ai2 ai3 ai4 an1 an2 an3 an4.... you get the idea. Anyways, it was excellent for getting an idea of what exactly tones are (even if they are completely over exaggerated on that pinyin chart).

But you said you didn't need help with tones... I still would suggest using that pinyin chart and the guide that goes along with it. They also have a matching podcast, but I think you have to have a Chinesepod paid account for that. Still, the guide is a very good one.

 

You can then supplement the guide with John Pasden's own guide, here. I think the Chinesepod guide was written by him too, but both guides present some of the information in slightly different ways, which is helpful for getting a feel for how to do zhi chi shi, zi ci si and ji qi xi.

 

Chinesepod also has an app these days (same link as their guide). I haven't used it, but judging by the quality of their pinyin guide, I'd be surprised if it isn't great.

 

I suggest reading the guide, listening to the syllable, recording yourself, listening to yourself, listening to the recording again, and comparing. Repeat many times. When I did it, I did it all in the first tone, and once I got though the whole chart, I kind of added on tones to the syllables I could already pronounce. It seemed to work well.

 

Knowing how to pronounce the syllables yourself will make you much more aware of the subtle nuances between the tricky ones, and you'll be able to better hear and identify them in other people's speech. 

 

 

Should I not worry too much about it. I mean I know a guy who uses v instead of w and otherwise has a thick accent but it rarely seems to be a problem for understanding him.

 

I highly suggest not taking the route of your friend (I'm assuming that this is a non-native friend, although there are some speakers who use a more v-ish sound then a w sound, as far as I know). He, along with so many other learners who chose to ignore the importance of good pronunciation when they see that they are being understood saying "Ni3 hao3", usually come to regret that. There is a very marked difference I see between natives understanding those who took the time to get good, understandable pronunciation, and those who settled for "good enough". Usually natives are polite about it, and compliment those who didn't take the time anyways, no matter how hard they are to understand. But you can see that they are really straining to understand. And it seems to me that if anyone is going to spend as much time as is necessary to learn to do anything useful in Chinese, it would behoove them to spend time at the beginning to make sure that when they do get to the point of having conversations in Chinese with real native speakers who aren't used to hearing foreigners' terrible accents and tones, they aren't making it a whole lot of extra work for the natives to understand them.

 

Apart from the purely practical aspect, I found that there is a strange enjoyment, learning about tones and different sounds not made by native English speakers. If you start of with the pinyin chart, you'll end up with terribly exaggerated tones, unlike any native speaker (besides teachers) use. But as you then listen to how real speakers use tones, and use intonation on top of tones, and how their tones, as well as syllables change and merge together and such depending on what they're saying, it's a really cool process to go through, and to then incorporate into your own speech to sound more and more native-like. Or at least I thought (think) it was (is). I have found that the pinyin chart above, along with John Pasden's Sinosplice website, if followed diligently, will give you a basis off of which to do just that.

[Lu]

Some 1-1 teaching should certainly help, especially if you find a good teacher. When I started learning Chinese, we spent hours upon hours in the 'language lab' going ā á ǎ à mā má mǎ mà et cetera ad infinitum, followed by hours of ji qi xi zi ci si zhi chi shi ri, and learning how to tell them all apart (ji/zhi, qi/chi, si/shi, etc etc). So digging in and keeping at it should help too.

 

Don't let this stop you from opening your mouth and trying to say sentences, but also don't do what your friend did and settle for 差不多 pronunciation. Your pronunciation (tones, grammar, etc) won't be perfect from the start, but you will only ever really get it right if from the start you aim for getting it right. Don't be satisfied with a coarse approximation, keep at it.

 

Good luck!

[Lumbering Ox]

Right. I got an action plan. I'll spend half my time on HelloChinese lessons and half my time on their pronunciation guide/Chinesepod Pinyin guide/Sinosplice guide. After which I'll take it by ear.

 

As for the 1 to 1 thing, I'll look into it. See how the above goes. If just a few hours will make a difference, it is affordable.

At this stage, I know 1 on 1 would help, but would it be considered vital or just a little bump. Personally I'd rather wait if it won't hurt me much.

 

I was just a bit worried because if I can't hear the difference in terms of identifying the sound then I was worried about how one can improve. However it seems, this is a normal thing.

[eddyf]

 I'd rather not give up but I get this sinking impression that without being in China I just won't get that immersion needed to fix these sort of problems and will never be able to actually speak/listen to it.

 

I'd just like to point out that there are tons of people, including on this forum, who have gotten to a pretty advanced level without ever being in an immersive environment. Immersion helps you make progress more quickly because you get lots of input and lots of opportunities to practice. But you can seek out input and practice opportunities anywhere. It all comes down to how many hours you put in.

 

Also, it seems like immersion doesn't help with pronunciation that much. There are so many language learners who are immersed for decades and never improve their accent. I think pronunciation requires targeted drills, preferably early on so you don't form bad habits.