Did dynastic China invade and expand?

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

The books you cited are related to the casualty figure of Moslem uprising in Shaanxi, Gansu and Yunnan but not Xinjiang.

Why was the Great Wall there? It was built by the ethnic Han Dynasties (Qin....Ming) to deter from invasion by nomadic tribes.

So what has it to do with this topic?

[Ian_Lee]

Just an interesting note about Vietnam.

While Vietnam claims itself as a victim of Chinese aggression, Vietnam itself was also an aggressor. It expanded into the Mekong River Valley in the 18th Century which was a well-defined Khmer Territory by that time.

[holyman]

How I define "invasion" is that one well-defined society (i.e. country or nation) capture/conquer the other well-defined society by force and subject their people to secondary treatment.

But the way you define "invasion" is that whenever a group of people ventures out and inhabits another area, then that is invasion.

ur guesses on my definitions are misleading. venturing outside can be considered as expansion, colonization, settlements into new lands etc. but invasions, are always followed by military actions, to subdue inhabitants of a foreign land, take their land as yours, and thats in all the examples i mention.

guangdong is call baiyue or bachviet which means multiple or countless viet tribes, guangxi and hainan were the lands of the sanmiao, li, etc. u are already closing ur eyes on facts: qin shihuang sent a troop of 500 000 to take these lands lead by his best commander. please go and read sima qian's 'shiji' or ban'gu's 'hanshu' on 'notes on foreign/unchartered/minority lands'. (外国志, 地理志)

and why do u bring in yellow emperor when i already said we should focus on qin dynasty and later? does the time of the yellow emperor fit ur definition of a well-defined society? he's only a myth figure mind u. i think qin dynasty fits pretty well.

if u blame the manchu for what they did, why did u claim the fruit of their actions? there is a simple term for that: double standards. bad things they did are their problems, profitable things they did are ours. if u say their conquest was bad, the han chinese didnt supported that, then why are the han chinese claiming those conquered lands as part of china now? u took the goodies but didnt want to share the responsibilities, whats that? simply thieves and cowards. if u say that the manchus belonged to another country/race, can i suggest the history of yuan china and qing china be included as a sub-branch in mongolian and manchurian history instead of the other way round? u see, u got to be fair in historical events. u claim the land, u bear the responsibility. u agreed that manchu is a vital part of the 56 nationalities in china, then their actions, past or present, is the responsibility of the whole chinese population. unless u wanna cast them out of zhonghua minzu and let them go independent.

[holyman]

The books you cited are related to the casualty figure of Moslem uprising in Shaanxi, Gansu and Yunnan but not Xinjiang.

Why was the Great Wall there? It was built by the ethnic Han Dynasties (Qin....Ming) to deter from invasion by nomadic tribes.

So what has it to do with this topic?

well, perhaps i made a mistake or maybe u want to read the book i mentioned before u conclude anything? see, u have been asking for proof and yet when i suggested any, u didnt want to dwell into it but wait for instant answers. anyway are u absolutely sure that the muslims in shannxi and gansu had absolutely no connections with those in xinjiang?

regarding why the great wall was there, u havent got my point. its not 'for what reason it was built', everyone know a wall is to keep people away. the question is 'why was it built in its present location', not further north or further south? 'why exactly at this present position'? just becos they feel happy to built there? or maybe they see an auspicious sign and they stopped there to built it? if u can answer that u probably got a clearer picture of how different tribes functioned in ancient china.

[holyman]

Just an interesting note about Vietnam.

While Vietnam claims itself as a victim of Chinese aggression' date=' Vietnam itself was also an aggressor. It expanded into the Mekong River Valley in the 18th Century which was a well-defined Khmer Territory by that time.[/quote']

doesnt say anything on the chinese side. u are still using the argument, if others do that, so can i, or, if everyone is wrong, then none is wrong. anyway we are not talking about vietnam's expansion, but did the chinese did that. i thought i already told u that in earlier posts? ok relax, its not about who is the bad guy, ok? only did, or didnt, very simple.

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

Your delineation between "colonization", "expansion", "settlement into new land" and " invasion" is really messy. May I ask you which colonization, expansion and settlement into new land in history was not accompanied by military force as invasion was?

As you said, Guangdong in Qin Empire's time (2,200 years ago) was inhabited by tribes like bachviet -- hundreds of Viet tribes -- and obviously that area was not organized in a well-defined society. Qin's expansion into that part had apparent crowding out effect on those tribes.

By the way, a more advanced civilization that engaged war with a less civilized tribe had started as early as Yellow Emperor's time and that was how magnet was invented.

Per your definition, then the Yellow Empreor must have also engaged in "invasion"!

And when did I claim the fruit of Manchu's action?

ROC inherited Qing Empire's territory because that was what the last Qing Empress said in the abdication edict in 1912: She delegated the new Republican government to inherit the existing Qing Territory to organize a new country based on the 5 main ethnic groups -- Han, Manchus, Mongols, Hui (all Moslems) and Tibetans -- whom all inhabited within Qing Empire.

In fact, that was why the early ROC flag constituted of 5 colors -- Red, Yellow, Blue, White and Black -- which represented those 5 groups.

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

The Moslem uprising in those provinces were not related to Yakub Beg's movement in present day Xinjiang since the former were mostly ethnic Han while the latter were ethnic Uighur.

I still can't understand why the Great Wall has to do with the topic we discuss. Please elaborate further.

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

Which Chinese invasion into Vietnam did you refer to? Please elaborate.

[holyman]

it is u who is making things messy. tell me which examples i mentioned regarding chinese invasions are not followed by military force? but look at the migration of ancient shang or xia tribes, change of capitals of shang or zhou tribes, are relatively peaceful, werent they? they come to a new land, the leader says 'this seems to be a good place for a capital', then hao'jing, an'yang, nuo'yi etc became the first cities of their tribe, these are called settling down in new lands, not invasions.

ok, if u say subduing another race or the local inhabitants is not invasion, fine. think we have a great difference in definitions here. i think yuan and qing plus other minorities, like the huns, also didnt invade china in chinese history, just some apparent crowding effects. sine its a not well defined civilisation attacking a civilised one, doesnt fit ur invasion definition.

c'mon, did u really see how that 'magnet carriage' works or u believe everything the book says? the books also said that there are gods and ghost that help different people, u believed in that too? how do u define who is 'more civilised' during the yellow emperor time? since he's the winner he's the more civilised one? writings are not even invented yet! man, u are just throwing out a question, answer it yourself in your own opinion, and then u are happy with it.

hahahaha, so u mean when qing dynasty was ruling china han and the rest are not chinese subjects but belonged to another country? only after the revolution then they became integrated as one? so in this way, the manchus have to bear the responsibilities alone, while the han, only newly aquianted, bears nothing at all.

[holyman]

Holyman:

Which Chinese invasion into Vietnam did you refer to? Please elaborate.

qin shihuang sending troops southwards. well there are other times too but i am not pretty sure of the dates so i'll keep quiet first.

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

You asked me not to believe in ancient books but you keep quoting me with all ancient books.

Hmmm....Probably I have to selectively read some books (and believe some but not others) as you did.

If the ancient book I read is correct, throughout the first 400-year "Spring & Autumn" period of Zhou Dynasty, the war of a more advanced civilization with less civilized tribes were constantly ongoing. In fact, even in places like the cradle of Han civilization like present day Henan, the less advanced tribes were just living within arm's distance of certain duchy. Even the Zhou Emperor's capital was constantly under military threat of those tribes and had to rely on the assistance of the surrounding duchies.

Oop....I guess you haven't read those books yet.

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

At Qin Shihuang's time, Red River Valley was only a place inhabited by many tribes. In any sense, it could not be classified as a well-defined society.

Qin's expedition was an "exploration" rather than an "invasion".

[holyman]

I still can't understand why the Great Wall has to do with the topic we discuss. Please elaborate further.

the great wall was there, not at anywhere else, becos of the 15 inch isohyet line. meaning the line that separates areas with annual rainfall more than 15 inch per year or less. this amount is the requirement for agriculture. areas with rainfall equals to or more than that can have agriculture but areas below that cant. they have to be nomads. the greatwall stood more or less on this line. it is both the artificial and natural boundaries of 2 types of civilisations. south of it, the people of the central plains goes farming, north of it, the huns and mongols went herding. of course the ancient chinese knew nothing about rainfall. they just knew that the huns will not settle further south cos the climate would allow the huns to be farmers, and the huns are not. they also knew that they themselves will not venture north of that line, cos beyond that they cant grow crops and they cant compete herding with the huns. so they built the wall there.

if the people of the central plains are peaceful, harmless and stick to their natural boundaries, they wont go beyond. but the truth is, in most chinese dynasties they are always beyond it to chase after other races.

[holyman]

If the ancient book I read is correct, throughout the first 400-year "Spring & Autumn" period of Zhou Dynasty, the war of a more advanced civilization with less civilized tribes were constantly ongoing. In fact, even in places like the cradle of Han civilization like present day Henan, the less advanced tribes were just living within arm's distance of certain duchy. Even the Zhou Emperor's capital was constantly under military threat of those tribes and had to rely on the assistance of the surrounding duchies.

thats what i called branding others as barbarians earlier on. the point is, what is the actual standard for advance civilisation?

[holyman]

got to sleep...

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

Thanks for your elaboration on the Great Wall.

The Great Wall was for defense purpose and built by the ethnic Han regime. No doubt.

But how many times did ethnic-Han based dynasties venture out of the Great Wall to attack the nomadic tribes?

At most two times -- Han and Sui/Tang -- while the former was a response to constant marauding of the Xiong Nu.

But how many times had the Great Wall been broken through by the nomadic tribes from northeast, north and northwest throughout China's history?

At least a dozen times.

So now you are stigmatizing the most-time victims.

[Ian_Lee]

Holyman:

I hesitate to label those less civilized tribes as barbarians as you did.

But that kind of military campaigns engaged between a more advanced society and the neighboring less civilized tribe could be traced in any civilizations.

I would not label it as invasion as you did.

[holyman]

Holyman:

But how many times did ethnic-Han based dynasties venture out of the Great Wall to attack the nomadic tribes?

At most two times -- Han and Sui/Tang -- while the former was a response to constant marauding of the Xiong Nu.

But how many times had the Great Wall been broken through by the nomadic tribes from northeast' date=' north and northwest throughout China's history?

At least a dozen times.

So now you are sticking a "Blame" mentality onto the most-time victims.[/quote']

please refer to the historical maps of chinese boundaries.

[holyman]

Holyman:

I hesitate to label those less civilized tribes as barbarians as you did.

But that kind of military campaigns engaged between a more advanced society and the neighboring less civilized tribe could be traced in any civilizations.

I would not label it as invasion as you did.

not me, but chinese rulers all the while. u can see these labellings thruout chinese history books. right, so there u go again, back to sqaure one, there are no invasions at all. see, the west or japanese didnt invade china too, cos its the military campaigns between more advance society and less civilized one, china was the less civilized one last century, wasnt it? same thing for the natives in america, india and africa. the europeans are just starting military campaigns, colonisation is nothing too bad really...

[holyman]

Holyman:

At Qin Shihuang's time' date=' Red River Valley was only a place inhabited by many tribes. In any sense, it could not be classified as a well-defined society.

Qin's expedition was an "exploration" rather than an "invasion".[/quote']

oh, an exploration of 500 000 troops. i would say the envoys to ye'lang in han dynasty or the legend of xu'fu going to japan an exploration. the 500 000 troops went to canton and vietnam area with a specific motive: make that land mine! anyone disagree, show them our might. anyway, i can see that u are saying taking these lands from the tribes and subduing them under chinese rule are quite okay, legitimate, justifiable, nothing wrong at all, since they are less civilised, and not a unified nation, right? thats not invasion at all. great!

anyway, fits ur thread title pretty well doesnt it? did china invade and expand? yes it did, 'maybe' this time u dont think its 'invasion', but definitely an 'expansion', right? just look at how big a piece of land they got, south of the wu'ling mountains up till hanoi...