Cause and effect in Chinese

[baihua]

I'm required to up my grammar and use more and more sentence structures involving 连词 in both writing and speaking. However, I'm being corrected on using them.

 

I'm getting proficient in word order, but is there a knack with learning these? Can they easily be grouped together? Are there any good resources beyond Chinese Grammar Wiki?

 

For example

Result ，因为 + Reason

Reason ，所以 + Result

因为 + Cause , 所以 + Effect

由于 + Cause, Effect

Cause + 因此 + Effect

[Angelina]

Good question. Logic has not been important in Chinese tradition. There are rules, but not analysed the way people in other parts of the world have already done. Not that many books where logicians have defined them. I think there should be a separate part of the forum dedicated to logic.

The rules are described better using formulas. Also, it is better to analyse language on discourse level instead of sentence level. Consider discourse markers too.

I will try to collect what resources I can find, but there is still a lot more to be done. Don't forget that when Chinese students are learning Chinese they lack decent grammar books themselves.

[BanZhiYun]

@Angelina You are absolutely wrong on every, absolutely every level, lol. Books on Chinese grammar, and especially syntax, have been written long, long, long time ago. Chinese grammar and syntax can only be thought and understood throughout very thorough understanding of the Chinese syntax. On another note, syntax and language is the 思维 of a given nation. I can assure you that if your syntax is not 到位, well your Chinese overall could not be 到位 either.

@Baihua What you need to look for is 句型, and especially 因果关系的句型。I have a book about it somewhere and will have a look at it later today.

[Angelina]

I am sorry, but I find memorizing 句型 boring. There is so much work that needs to be done on grammar and logic. I am thinking to start a blog or a WeChat account where I share what I find. The little good work that has been done recently is not used, not even by Chinese students.

[Shelley]

I would suggest Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar by Claudia Ross and Jing-heng Sheng-ma. ISBN 0-415-70010-8. There is a work book too, which is worth having too.

 

I also use Schaum's Outline of Chinese Grammar.

 

I did a little review of both here http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46180-intermediate-chinese-grammar-online-edx-course/page-5

 

Review at Post #84.

[BanZhiYun]

Basic books are textbooks on 现代汉语, then more 参考书 you can look @ 马真's 简明实用汉语语法教程. And many more, especially written by 朱德熙, 陆俭明 and 吕叔湘. Books on Chinese grammar written by China's (basically) best scholars on linguistics.

@Angelina it's not only about 句型, it's first 句式, then 句型. I see you don't feel confident in your writing, I can assure you it's because of not throughout understanding on Chinese syntax. It's the heart of Chinese thought. And the work that has been done in the past (ever since 1949, lol, if that's "recently" and even the first grammar on Chinese《马氏文通》）And if the Chinese people around you "don't use it" doesn't mean people studying 中文系 don't know or don't use it . So I'd say it's not a good idea to categorize as much.

[Guest realmayo]

To answer the OP's question, I *guess* you don't need any complicated grammar book e.g. #6 (but instead something like Shelley suggests may well be helpful). This is because, I *think*, that for the types of patterns that you're referring to, it's simpler just to learn how to use each of them as they come along, rather than trying to understand 'why' they are how they are. But I would be interested to know if anyone e.g. BanZhiYun would propose some alternative, as a more efficient way to learn how to use those kind of grammar patterns.

[Guest realmayo]

Chinese grammar and syntax can only be thought and understood throughout very thorough understanding of the Chinese syntax.

 

This sentence is too self-referential to make any sense. I also don't think you need any grammar book to understand "the 思维" of China.

[Angelina]

I am studying at a 中文系, things are improving, but it takes time.

Grammar books make it easier to understand the 思路 of China. Unless you enjoy rote memorization.

[Shelley]

One other thing I have recently been doing that has helped a lot is to preserve the word order when "translating" into English.

 

Here is the topic I started about it http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/50055-preserving-word-order/

 

This has made so much difference that I have actually started to enjoy reading and I find that I understand grammar much more clearly.

 

 

[BanZhiYun]

Chinese is an analytic language (in case you have studied about linguistic typology), so for Chinese, you must know why it works like that. It's related with the structure of the language. You can not use teaching methods that work with English on Chinese, and vice verse. You can see that the traditional Chinese teaching of languages is related with 句式 and 句型 (listen to a single class of English, they emphasize so much on grammar, that's because of the Chinese traditional teaching of Chinese). As you can see, that won't help Chinese people learn English, because of the difference in structures between English and Chinese. So trying to 违背 from that while learning Chinese, will be insufficient, there is not a "more efficient way", this is the most efficient way. It's how 陆俭明 thought Chinese to foreigners back in the 60's (my Bulgarian teacher studied in Beida during that time, in 1963, she is a student of 陆俭明.) If you have never went through it, how are you looking for a more efficient way, when you haven't tried the one that's actually "more efficient"? Just because it doesn't work on Chinese people while studying other foreign languages? 

@Angela 知其然，不知其所以然. You are inefficient if you rote memorize without understanding it. If that's how you believe "memorizing" 句型、句式 in Chinese works, that's fine by me. If I remember correctly, you are about to graduate, and if things are "improving" and you are unsure of what you can, and especially what you can't, and if they are basics (as Chinese syntax is for 中文系 students), then yeah. I don't think you should be so ignorant, at least if you are, go to talk someone else that's not me. Thanks.

[Angelina]

Ha

so your teacher of Chinese is Bulgarian?

[Guest realmayo]

BanZhiYun, sorry, I was referring to "Books on Chinese grammar written by China's (basically) best scholars on linguistics" as being probably unnecessary for the OP at this point. If you look at the OP's #1 post, let's say you have two choices:

 

1) learn how to use 因此 properly, with lots of example sentences

2) learn why 因此 must be used the way it is used, using complicated grammar explanations, and how it relates to/differs from other pieces of grammar

 

I'm suggesting that (1) is [may be] more efficient for an intermediate learner of Chinese than (2).

[pross]

Other resources: Common Chinese Patterns 330.

[Angelina]

realmayo

(2) is better, unfortunately, resources are limited

[roddy]

Baihua, probably the simplest thing to do is show us some sentences you've been corrected on, or write some new ones. 

[baihua]

I'm only just starting to move into writing, so be gentle, but I think this is gist, minus the obvious gaffs;

 

最近在当地社区反对在应该区新建住房由于担心房价。

 

I'm told its structurally wrong. This leads me to believe there is a deeper logic behind 连词 that I'm not getting a handle on.

 

@shelley

"I also use Schaum's Outline of Chinese Grammar."

I have this book, which pages cover this in detail?

[889]

I can't really follow the sentence you've written. Why not try to write very simple sentences at this stage: 由于香港房价太高，我住在深圳。

[Angelina]

It is tough to follow your train of thought.

My advice is to start expressing more simple thoughts at the beginning, you can learn how to say "I am afraid it is too expensive" then learn how to express more, like "I am afraid it is too expensive for me, so I will look around".

There is a deeper logic, native speakers learn it by practice. I can't think of any good introductory course in the logic of Chinese. It is better to start learning basic formulas from formal semantics (in case you want to know more see the book below) instead of trying to define 连词 at this stage. You will probably make mistakes when making up the rules to use 连词 yourself.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Meaning-Grammar-Gennaro-Chierchia/9780262531641

[iand]

If you haven't yet, you should check the Chinese Grammar Wiki's index on indicating cause and effect.